The German Model

Today for a change I will be looking at German football as certain events there have peaked my interest . I swear this to you now though , I often praise the German people to my buddies , one in particular as he has a distinctly German surname yet probably couldnt find it on a map . Welcome to America and thats actually a common story. But I digress-their efficiency and quality of product I admire,not to mention some social aspects . For instance,I’m told that in order to file your taxes in that country you must have seen a doctor that year and got the stamp to prove it. So basically it’s mandatory to see the doctor once a year. As a result of such a simple practice the economy saves billions by catching illness earlier and the people live and contribute longer . Its beautiful . You dont pay tax on a car made in country either so its Audi or Bmw Sir ? Damn good beer ( Spaten is the fav ) also and you have my kinda people . I like ze Germans .

I was flabbergasted to read that the German fourth tier had accepted the Chinese under 20 team into its division of 19 teams to be team number 20. This floors me !
The German Football Association and Chinese government signed a deal in 2016 aimed at raising the level of football in China and their under 20’s were part of the deal. The immediate aim was to prepare them for the Olympics in 2020. However the team where not officially part of the league and their games where officially friendlies. The teams playing them got way more cash than they usually do and the games were beamed back live to Chinese tv viewers !
The experiment crashed after a protest by Tibetans unfurling their national flags on the sidelines caused the Chinese to walk off in protest . Some teams refused to play them at all.
Such a strange episode again reinforces to me that the game is constantly evolving and to assume nothing nor take anything for granted. There was a will and a way, some compromise but eventually the team got the move . That at least shows something. As does the idea of join the bottom and your bigger profile should be welcomed. I have often thought ignore the top tiers of anywhere if moving , thats jumping in the deep end and you might get embarrassed being underprepared. Easier to get voted in down below and work solidly upwards.

The next item I would draw your attention to is the clash between the league’s governing bodies and fans. Last weekend was a cup weekend and it was used as a backdrop to protest what the fans groups see as the emerging face of commercialism taking over the sport at the fans expense. Areas they are particularly upset about include ,,,,
Monday Night Football
Fan equipment – megaphones and banners and such are at the mercy of the clubs, no set rules.
Collective Punishment – closing entire stands for the actions of a few.
Commitment to Standing Terraces.

Talks between the two sides broke down and the games have seen many displays including one in English proclaiming “ Welcome to der Horrorshow ! “.
On the Monday night games issue the governing bodies insist the games are at the behest of the clubs for economic benefit. Amazingly one fan cited people must get up for work the next day ! It might and does seem strange to us as we are very used to the concept of MNF and its also a cornerstone of the NFL.
Reading the areas of contention and the accompanying articles it seems that just like Scottish football the domestic game in Germany is also at a crossroads.
The fans desire is to keep the sport pure and clean and dedicated to the fan, not Tv or money and certainly not to protect its chosen 11 . Foreign investment in clubs is frowned upon and they like the community to own their own teams.
Living next door to the monster that is the English top tier for so long,I suppose it would be easy to accepts its protocols as the norm throughout the game but it seems that concept is misguided.
What is for sure is that this is not just a small minority that are protesting . Some 20k Dortmund fans recently stayed away and the stadium announcer spoke words of support for them.
The fans groups seem to hold a lot of sway and have put differences aside to work for the good of the game which is very admirable,one must admit. They have vowed to continue their work but “ inside the stadium and with greater purpose than ever “.

There’s lessons to be learned here , and we should watch and learn. There is nowhere near the groundswell of support for action against the governing bodies as far as Celtic fans are concerned but that could change in the future. It’s heartening to see other supporters stand up for themselves and the good of the game .
We aren’t alone in feeling disenfranchised . Perhaps some of their actions might translate over in the Scottish set up and we could discuss using their tactics.
On behalf of the site I shall contact the various groups involved and ask them can we help and would they like to use these pages to spread their message. I shall keep you appraised.

Should you the reader wish us to contact anyone or any group for a question and answer session or to write about them and help promote just let us know. This blog is yours , take it wherever you wish.

Please consider writing an article for the site . Any and all will be published.

sentinelcelts@gmail.com @sentinelcelts

And get a move on,please-otherwise majoc will be on tomorrow demanding we take up the pitchforks and storm The Bastille!

 

107 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
majoc
September 24, 2018 6:01 am

Mahe

Great stuff once again. Yer a lippy sod,mind. And aye,unless someone beats me to it,I intend to post a minor rant tomorrow.

You’ve been warned…

The German model of football ownership is a very interesting one indeed. Sadly,it probably can’t be retrofitted to places where commercialisation-or historically the local butcher!-have taken over clubs. I seem to remember some young kid taking over Aldershot in the early 90s and driving them to the brink and beyond. And don’t ever ask Simon Jordan about his time at Crystal Palace.

Sam Hamman was probably the owner I was most familiar with,even if only vicariously. Though I was central to a major stitch-up dreamt up by his players-one of whom lived round the corner at the time-and my work colleague who became the driving force behind AFC Wimbledon. He was a lot of things,Sam. But he was nobody’s fool,he cared about the club from top to bottom,and he cared about the fans.

Until he literally sold out. Shafted by London Borough of Merton,time and again,and he got sick of it.

Public ownership,sadly,will never be the norm here to the extent it is in Germany. But on the few occasions it has been tried,it has been largely-a qualified-success. Why qualified? Because virtually by definition,they lack the resources tcompete with the big boys.

And on the rare occasions that they do,the fans may find that their community partnership was a sham,certain individuals had built up major shareholdings,and-bang!-shotgun wedding to an American.

There’s always some basturt in it for themselves and wreck it for everyone else. In football as in life.

,big packy
Reply to  majoc
September 24, 2018 7:44 am

mahe and majoc great posts ghuys, what we need is more fans on the board, people who live and breathe celtic, like everyone on here,will it ever happen don’t know, we can but hope.hh.

Awe Naw
September 24, 2018 9:51 am

Ok the stuff about Doctors and German car tax is crap.

The reason why the German medical situation is better than in the UK is because it is private and it is very expensive. There is no German national health service. Any medical intervention is means tested. Always. Nothing for free in Germany. Nothing.

Funny enough it is good that you choose football , the German health INDUSTRY and the car industry as they are all the same.
Utterly corrupt and sponsored by the state to be allowed to do so. Think FIFA

If we are looking for solutions then we should be brave enough to say what we want and what our expectations are. I mean we are paying for it but we have to be careful. The bottom line for Celtic as the accounts reveal along is that the armchair fans pours more money into the coffers than the average fan who attends and is considered a more valuable customer for many reasons. Not just by Celtic PLC but by the entire football industry

So you can jump up and down and remonstrate all you want but the fan with the most money nearly always wins. That´s a fact of German football life too.

Illegal internet streaming is the way forward for now.

Hail Hail

The Exiled Tim
September 24, 2018 10:22 am

Just logged on, read the leader, was going to say well done the Germans then saw Awe Naw’s reply 🙂
I agree that streaming is the way to go, been doing it for a while now, must say it’s no bad, another way is the betting sites, watched the Boca v River Plate game last night on a betting site, legal, no buffering, perfect picture and free if you resist betting, which I do, as long as you have at least a tenner in your account you can stream till your hearts content, all our away league games are on the betting site, no commentry but that’s a good thing imo.
Our club needs to get it’s act together, the Celtic TV product is crap, we have big comms hitters on our board with their fingers up their jacksies, what the ef are they doing to better the product we sell, I have seen wheans of stuff on how it can be improved, yet they do nada, just rake it in for a crap product and service.

majoc
Reply to  Awe Naw
September 24, 2018 11:52 am

AWENAW

Oh aye,and you’re an expert on Germany anaw noo? Ffs,you’ve only lived there for thirty-odd years(!) Seriously,thanks for that info,I doubt that Mahe was alone in believing that Germany had a social medicine system. In fact,I’m shocked to discover otherwise!

I see that a number of Celtic-minded bloggers are jumping on the Brendan blame-game bandwagon. That is their right,they are entitled to voice their opinions,and they offer to us all the opportunity to disagree. Maybe I’m just miffed because E-Tims has caused a rethink on the title of my article tomorrow,even if not the content. But see if you can spot the common denominator here.

Manager with three titles under his belt repeatedly raises concerns about interference and lack of support in football affairs,decides to quit.

Manager with three titles under his belt and a strong-spending rival breathing down his neck gets a £50k signing in January to go with the Nil spend in summer,decides to quit.

Manager with three titles under his belt has his best players sold,has to beg with DD for a new contract for Scott Brown,told to sack both of his assistants over time,decides to quit.

Manager with two double trebles under his belt,a 100% success rate,receives a baseball bat in the baws in successive windows,sees his best player sold from under him.

Now,I don’t think BR has quit,for the reasons I mentioned before-Stock Exchange regulations-but I do think he feels undermined and undervalued.

But the common denominator is still there,still coining it. Still conning us.

Awe Naw
Reply to  majoc
September 24, 2018 12:17 pm

Majoc,

I can´t see the problem with agreeing to boycott ANYTHING that is money related with Scottish football apart from the I.Q of the potential boycotter. Too many wresteling fans who believe in any old shit.

More than a club shit for example.

So easy just stop giving them your money. If you is plural then would be better if it was coordinated

Impudent Strumpet
September 24, 2018 12:24 pm

About 3 years ago at the peak of my dislike for Dermot Desmond’s influence over Celtic (which is still festering) I did a fair bit of research into club ownership models and posted some views on CQN. Funnily enough it was then that majoc and I started emailing. Anyway, the German 50+1 ownership model was something I looked at and admired. To me that is a noble policy however just like most noble things it has come under fire from the great capitalists of the German game and Karl-Heinz Rummenigge has often called for it to be abolished. KHR is, in my opinion, a disastrous influence on European football but that is a post for another day. My view is that the 50 + 1 rule is doomed – the loopholes that were allowed for certain clubs undermined it from the start. The money men will have their way.

majoc
Reply to  Impudent Strumpet
September 24, 2018 12:31 pm

IMPUDENTSTRUMPET

Or you could put it in article form as SALTIRESENSEVILLA did the other day,and mail it to Mahe for publication.

He might even allow you to put links in it. In a previous life,he was no stranger to various foods(!)

Awe Naw
Reply to  Impudent Strumpet
September 24, 2018 12:38 pm

KHR sits at the top of the ECA. A convicted tax cheat.

And we have our SVDP CQN men telling us how influential PL will b enow that he sists on it as an associate member.

Misplaced hope and stupidity as always

Maybe in the next life eh ?

majoc
Reply to  Awe Naw
September 24, 2018 12:44 pm

AWENAW

I know your opinion,and it’s difficult to say you are wrong-inasmuch as a full-scale boycott would have seen the clear-out of the board which many desire. I actually just want them to stick to their own job,the one that they are good at

But in all conscience,I cannot support a boycott. I am now,have been for a while,in favour of boycotting all the cups. But maybe that will have to wait till next season,no point boycotting when we are winning.

Besides,I’m lucky to see three games a season,how am I supposed to tell my family that Ah’m no’ gaun,ah’m in a cream puff?

Yep,that totally undermines the plan. Multiply me by virtually every other Celtic fan and it’s a non-starter.

I always think of a certain über-Tim and his über-Tim wife. Saturday morning,he says-don’t think we’ll bother the day,wee trip to B&Q cos that fence needs done.

Reply-Aye,good yin. Get yer arse in gear and yer scarf on!

My kinda girl,and that’s why it won’t happen. Bar total meltdown,by which time it will be too late. Which completes the circle. Because we won’t boycott through events like just now,only by apathy. And the antidote to apathy is another Brendan,or similar. As has been shown.

majoc
Reply to  Awe Naw
September 24, 2018 12:46 pm

I think the ECA have got PL’s number by now. Do what you like,but give me a financial carrot to take back to my fans.

Do they have these discussions in Munich,minutes written on white paper?

Impudent Strumpet
Reply to  majoc
September 24, 2018 12:53 pm

Majoc

Me do a post? I don’t think Sentinel Celts is ready for that many sausage puns

Impudent Strumpet
Reply to  Awe Naw
September 24, 2018 1:04 pm

The story goes that the German tax authorities went after Hoeness and Rummenigge but only had enough evidence on Hoeness. They ended up hammering Rummenigge for not declaring tax on twin Rolex watches that had been gifted to him in Qatar – found that rather funny.

Awe Naw
Reply to  majoc
September 24, 2018 1:06 pm

No don’t be silly. The ECA is located in Switzerland for tax reasons.

https://www.ecaeurope.com/

Anything they want you to know can be found on the above website.

Needless to say anything that you want to know .. will never be published.

The ECA ‘s only real purpose is to exact monies from UEFA and FIFA. It has no intention of doing anything else.

Impudent Strumpet
Reply to  Impudent Strumpet
September 24, 2018 1:13 pm

P.s. Uli Hoeness owns a sausage factory.

This is not innuendo…

Awe Naw
Reply to  Awe Naw
September 24, 2018 1:14 pm

The ECA consists of guys that the likes of Campbell Ogilivie, John MacLelland (who wrote most of their articles) I think he is even guaranteed life time membership.
Now Imagine HMRC caught up with Campbell and Campbell refused and then went to court and lost again and the judge said you pay 500,000€ or you go to jail and Campbell says ok under those circumstances I will pay.

That is what Karl Heinz Rumennigge actually done and he is still head of the ECA. His boss at Bayern Munich Uli Hoeness and still is actually WENT TO JAIL for tax evasion.

Awe Naw
Reply to  Impudent Strumpet
September 24, 2018 1:18 pm

yes quarter a million Euro …. cause he was caught.

Der Kaiser looking at 5 years in Jail due to his 6m € bribe.

Impudent Strumpet
Reply to  Awe Naw
September 24, 2018 1:26 pm

Awe Naw

Do the Bayern Big Boys not know their [Scottish] Rites? Deary me…

Awe Naw
Reply to  Impudent Strumpet
September 24, 2018 1:33 pm

For Bayern Big Boys read Sir David Murray, John MacLelland, Campbell Ogilvie. etc.

majoc
Reply to  Impudent Strumpet
September 24, 2018 1:36 pm

They need a trip to my home town.

http://www.mk0.com

Awe Naw
September 24, 2018 1:36 pm

Anybody who is emotionally incapable of financially withdrawing from Scottish football even for one day deserves to get the piss ripped out of them.

Awe Naw
Reply to  majoc
September 24, 2018 1:39 pm

Was screaming with laughter yesterday on BBC Radio Scotland.

A one hour recruitment drive for the Orange Lodge.

Then they played out with “all you need is love” not even the merest whiff of irony

HH

saltires en sevilla
September 24, 2018 1:42 pm

Good chat today

Just reading back…interesting stuff.

Seriois question. Did Brendan say the team might not get back on track this year? Is that smsm bollox or are there verifiable quotes?

majoc
Reply to  saltires en sevilla
September 24, 2018 1:49 pm

I don’t know,mate. First I’d heard that.

It wouldn’t surprise me,every team needs a reboot on occasion. We have largely the same as under Deila. Except the replacements haven’t been up to scratch.

Personally,I refuse to believe that a manager who came through the ranks,was used to sourcing players at every level,can’t do it anymore.that he’s lost his nose for a player.

So…

The Exiled Tim
Reply to  saltires en sevilla
September 24, 2018 2:00 pm

He said the supporters “should be alarmed” make of that what you will.

Awe Naw
September 24, 2018 2:15 pm

Brendan is not and never has been a horses for courses man. He has a philosophy and believes that philosophy should be adhered too. Two double trebles .. who is going to argue that he´s wrong ?

When he refused to change that philosophy for the European games. We and therefore he got hammered. I thought though it is the right thing to do. It stops papering over the cracks. It lets everyone know exactly where we are and what is necessary for the future
(i.e where we want to be)

The club clearly did not like it ( CQN is so moronic this way .. gives the game away every time )
Not only did it show how far we are behind from the proper contenders but it destroyed the home “fortress” record and did not help with the coefficient. Brendan imho stuck correctly to his guns. How else are we going to properly develop ?

When Brendan heard the same excuses for the second summer in a row he quit.
and that is where we are now at I believe.

Timmy managers rubs Peter Lawwell up the wrong way.

HH

Awe Naw
Reply to  Awe Naw
September 24, 2018 2:16 pm

one double treble . getting carried away

majoc
September 24, 2018 2:27 pm

AWENAW

Again,difficult to argue. I used to get p’d off at WGS and NFL for coaching on the pitch prior to European games. They played the hand they were dealt,detrimental in the league but to our benefit in Europe.

Park the bus or stifle the midfield.

Brendan’s thoughts are the players are used to a system,carry on with a tweak here and there to deal with the opposition.

Or not,depending on which mega bucks team we are playing!

Impudent Strumpet
Reply to  majoc
September 24, 2018 2:45 pm

Majoc & Awe Naw

The anger at the Euro humpings was born out of a belief that Celtic should be competing (I mean really competing) on the big stage. That’s vanity. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Celtic supporters probably think that song was about them…

The fact is that Celtic are a wee club when it comes to the stitched up UEFA competitions, and that’s the way the big clubs intend to keep it. I’m actually getting to the point now where I am not too bothered about Celtic qualifying for the grubby, money spinning stages of these competitions. I mean, it’s not like we actually put any of the prize money to good use!

Awe Naw
Reply to  majoc
September 24, 2018 2:46 pm

Yes and if a new player comes in because he is substituted, injured or recently bought then it minimises disruption. If the player can´t do it then get rid of. That is another major problem area in my opinion. It´s not Brendans job to get rid of players that he no longer wants. Problem is with Celtic Player Let & CashandCarry is it sucks the resources from the club. Hanging onto Allan and Christie so that they can go down the Liam Henderson route is PL´s philosophy not Brendans. It also makes his job much tougher.

Celtic FC is geared up to qualify for Europe. To just qualify. That´s success. That will give us the money needed to enable us to spend 6 times more than anyone and win everything domestically and do SFA in Europe.

HH

Awe Naw
Reply to  Impudent Strumpet
September 24, 2018 2:52 pm

IS,

That’s all true but I reckon that with Brendans philosophy it is the only way we are capable of making inroads into Europe. We are also earning enough money and qualifying regularly compared to other clubs to make inroads into Europe but the PLC aren´t interested in European football glory at all only the money that it brings.

The PLC are absolutely pathetic. Too scared to do anything except take as much money as possible.

Luckily for them the majority of their customer base are uneducated religious bigots who button up the back and will happily pay 50 quid to take their sons and daughters to a stadium where the roof can collapse at any moment.

HH

Impudent Strumpet
Reply to  Awe Naw
September 24, 2018 2:58 pm

I agree that BR’s philosophy is the way forward, but it is very hard to get people who were raised on “get the ball up the park” to accept that. They would rather we try to achieve a statistical anomaly such as a 2-1 win against Barcelona than try to develop our ability to play European football.

Incidentally, I can’t agree that the majority of Celtic fans are religious bigots. I just feel too many are too comfortable with the the good old days or the status quo…I mean, what’s not to like about double denim???

Awe Naw
Reply to  Impudent Strumpet
September 24, 2018 3:06 pm

We´ll agree to disagree. 10,000 used to turn up at Ibrox knowing that the roof could fall in them. As Bamber says that’s a starter for ten.

The 30,000 that turn up at Hampden that´s my starter for thirty.

None of them worldwide capable of laying a glove on the PLC.

Impudent Strumpet
September 24, 2018 3:11 pm

Just managed to catch up with ETims. I don’t buy the Rodgers handing in his notice (officially or not) story. One part I did agree with is the side swipe at the songbook on Sunday. Far be it from me to say what anyone can or can’t sing but I eventually muted the sound during the match as I was rather bored of broad black brimmers being worn for 800 years to the sound of rattling Thompson guns or something like that. At one point I thought Follow Me Up To Carlow was surely up next, but that would be too hard for two separate stands to keep rhythm too.

As I say, sign what you want but a wee Celtic song would be nice everyone now and then. Wait, have I just contradicted my disagreement with Awe Naw??? ?

Impudent Strumpet
Reply to  Impudent Strumpet
September 24, 2018 3:12 pm

Or sing, whatever…

Impudent Strumpet
Reply to  Impudent Strumpet
September 24, 2018 3:19 pm

Also “every” not “everyone” auto correct is out of control

Awe Naw
Reply to  Impudent Strumpet
September 24, 2018 3:20 pm

I no longer read E-Tims, JamesJohn, Phil, Fields of Green and only occasionally CQN. It´s just a case of getting our daily bread from them and being truly thankful. The frontal lobotomy has yetto happen.

I made my own mind up about Brendan based on the experiences of MON, WGS, TM, NL, RD and mainly Peter Lawwell

If I am wrong then PL will have to go as he is incapable of kissing and making up. AND THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN due to the ultimate main principle of Celtics present existence.

HH

Impudent Strumpet
Reply to  Awe Naw
September 24, 2018 3:27 pm

Yes, Lawwell collects the rents for the absentee landlord.

I’ve given up asking this question on CQN, but I’ll give it a bash here, does anyone know when the last board meeting attended by big Dermo was? I know it is at least over a decade since but can’t pinpoint the exact last one.

Awe Naw
Reply to  Impudent Strumpet
September 24, 2018 3:38 pm

Was he present for any Brendan Rodgers trophy ? Bayern Munich was the last game he was at Nov 2017

I wonder why that game !!!

Awe Naw
Reply to  majoc
September 24, 2018 3:55 pm

Yeah I have the same problems. But I´ve been boycotting since 5WA

Impudent Strumpet
Reply to  Awe Naw
September 24, 2018 3:58 pm

Good point, , hadn’t noticed thay

AweNawNoAnnoniOan
Reply to  Awe Naw
September 24, 2018 4:36 pm

250k euros

Impudent Strumpet
September 24, 2018 7:32 pm

This article and the ensuing discussion has had me thinking all day (dangerous and a real threat to my sanity) about fan ownership. I came to the conclusion a while ago that it would only truly come about for Celtic through magnanimity or Armageddon – either the absentee landlord would have to gift a stake to the support or the economic condition of the club would become so bad that fan ownership would be the only means of carrying on. In short, it is just never going to happen.

Still to this day, I’m a little, tiny bit jealous of the fans of old Rangers. When Mk 1 went down the pan the fans had a genuine opportunity to establish a new club on their terms and with fan ownership. They could have built something sustainable and beneficial for the community. It was a golden opportunity. As it was they eschewed that opportunity in favour of the soothing tunes of the Pied Piper of Doncaster. The silly, silly billies.

Is fan ownership a panacea? Naw, but it is that wee comforting pipe dream for those of who believe there is still something like a Corinthian spirit salvageable from the tatters of the modern game. A wee bit of escapism if you will. Is modern football really that bad? Am I just an old dude suffering from golden age syndrome? No, I’m 32 and even I realise modern professional football belongs in the bin.

P.S. what time does Ronaldo throw his tizzy at not being chosen for the Ballon D’Or?

,big packy
Reply to  Impudent Strumpet
September 24, 2018 7:57 pm

awenaw/impudent strumpet. cracking posts this is the level of debate we need, wish I could put into words what you ghuys are saying,.keep on keeping on.hh.

Impudent Strumpet
Reply to  ,big packy
September 24, 2018 8:34 pm

Big man (I’ve no idea if you are actually big) you have been a great addition to CQN and seem to be one of the original few on here.

Btw, I love the dog posts. My wee schnauzer isn’t into the football so I don’t mention him much but since this article is about Germany… ?

,big packy
Reply to  Impudent Strumpet
September 24, 2018 8:42 pm

impudent strumpet don’t tell anyone on cqn, but im 5 foot 6 inches with my shoes on ,now that is seriously true. that’s why I laugh about the ghuys on cqn having me down as 6 foot 7inches I wish. love your posts.hh.

The Exiled Tim
Reply to  Impudent Strumpet
September 24, 2018 9:05 pm

FFS, don’t be encouraging him to post about the dugs 🙂

,big packy
Reply to  The Exiled Tim
September 24, 2018 9:26 pm

the exiled tim promise not to ,hope you and yours are well.hh.

The Exiled Tim
Reply to  ,big packy
September 24, 2018 9:53 pm

All good thanks,
Take care
HH

majoc
September 25, 2018 5:51 am

Morning all.

I was gonna put up a kinda State of the Nation article,aka rant,this morning. Had it all written too. But I think it’s fair to say that the problem has been discussed here and elsewhere-Etims virtually cribbed my headline,ffs!-so I’ll let it go.

It’s no secret that I’m a back the team sack the board Celtic supporter,but even I have to admit that not everything is the fault of the board. People need to remember they are highly paid professionals. And adults. Bit old for a tantrum,throwing toys out the pram,whether you’re 22 or 45. My mate’s daughter would get a gentle smack for it,and she’s only 18.

Months.

As an FYI,part of the reason for the existence for this site-very much Mahe’s conception,but a certain comment kickstarted my involvement-is explained in my post on CQN at 527am,if anyone is interested. And funnily enough,I even got a phone call on the subject yesterday. Tempting fate,my Mum warned me about that fifty years ago.