The Road to Ignominy,,,
“We are the people” proclaim of the Ibrox hordes – a term of triumphalism, or, just an accepted statement of fact used to underline their established place in Scottish society? Probably a mixture of both – ‘rubbing our noses in it’ when things are going well for them, and, keeping us in ‘our place’, when not.
The Ibrox fans packed their stadium and others the length and breadth of the country, during their four years in the lower divisions of the Scottish game. “The big hoose must stay open” was the mantra, and a fairy-tale was constructed that the liquidated club lived on. They are “going for 55”, and if that indeed happens before Celtic get to that number, their shameful past will be air-brushed from history – much like the century of sectarian employment policy was, apparently expunged by the signing of Maurice Johnston. Season ticket sales are at an all-time high and the Gerrard re-branding sees a buoyant support expecting great things.
What would have been the Celtic supporters response if, by our own hand, we had perpetrated the wrongdoings of Rangers, been found out, and suffered the same consequences? If our club had been shown to be a disgrace, cheated the football system, the taxman, charities and welched on £100m plus to a miscellany of creditors, where would we be right now?
I submit that we would have had by now a permanent dissolution of 60% of our support. The shame would have eaten deep into the psyche of the Celtic fan – “we deserved all we got” would have been the reaction of many when the full horror was known, I am also sure that there would have been some kind of movement to start up a new club totally divorced from the deeds of the old. We would have lamented that our glorious European Cup win had been thrown away by the officers of the club for short-term gain and the Celtic name would have become a source of embarrassment for many.
Now, some eight years later, assuming the club had survived where would we be? God knows if we would ever have found a Duff & Phelps to keep the myth alive. We would be living ‘hand to mouth’, probably sitting at the wrong end of the table. Those supporters who did stick with us would number only around the twenty thousand mark, many of the older ones too ashamed and disgusted to return. It is not that we do not love our club with the intensity that is now seen at Ibrox; rather we have a different value system. It would be a long time before the club would be forgiven….if ever.
We must be grateful that we did not succumb to temptation and follow the Ibrox lead – there are many, at the time, who would have wanted that to happen – even now in the midst of the second most successful football period in our history and when we are the most financially successful club ever in the Scottish game, there are still some who lambast our club for not gambling with its future in what is a crazy football world.
Yes, by all means, let us lobby for the best we can get, and be the best that we can be, but always remember – we have a glorious past, present and hopefully future – over at Ibrox it is an ignominious past, a debt-ridden present and an uncertain future.
Guest article by Gold .
Should you wish to contribute its sentinelcelts@gmail.com
GOLD
Great stuff,sir. A lot of interesting points,not least re integrity.
Like you,I think most of our support would have been disgusted had it been Celtic who went bust after decades of cheating and tax evasion/theft. I’m not so sure that most of us would have turned our back on Celtic forever;I have made it plain that I support Celtic despite the board,and always have done. They don’t represent me,never have,and I honestly think that it wouldn’t have taken me too long to blame the board for everything-as usual!-and go back to supporting Celtic.
Of course,it is unlikely that a new Celtic would have been granted the privileges that a new Rangers have been,so I’d have been watching them climb the pyramid. Because of that,tickets would be at a premium,grounds being much smaller in the lower leagues,and that alone would generate an interest among fans of the previous club desperate to see the new team.
Your other main point,towards the end of the article,is one that I entirely disagree with. The fans who are demanding that the board get their finger out and sign some decent quality,first-team ready players,are not asking that we “gamble with our future” by spending money we don’t have.
The club has made a fortune since Brendan arrived. And IMO it should be invested in the playing squad.
HH
Good read,this. When more money than you can shake a stick at is never enough.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jan/17/how-a-deluge-of-money-nearly-broke-the-premier-league
Cheers Majoc.
I too want the board to bring in the very best that we can afford.
Majoc.
Thanks for flagging up this article. Let’s face it is only a matter of time before the elite break away.
HI GOLD ,good post, yes if it would have been us caught cheating it would have been a different story altogether.hh.
It’s impossible to say what the reaction would have been had Celtic gone into liquidation in the way the old Rangers did. One indicator is to judge the reaction of Celtic supporters to the new Ibrox based club. Sadly, a large proportion (possibly a majority) of the Celtic support regard the new entity as the same as the one that went bust. Look at their reaction when both clubs set the price for away fans at £49.00 which was a damn high ticket price for a club that was only a few years old. How much did we charge when Gretna played their first match at CP?
I think that suggests that tens of thousands would have reacted in much the same way the huns did and pretended that the phoenix club was a continuation of the old club. This is not unique and fans of other clubs (e.g., Chester City, Hereford United, Hibs, etc., etc.) are happy to transfer their allegiances to the new clubs that emerged when the original incarnations died.I also think the footballing authorities would have been prepared (though far from happy) to have allowed us to take the same liberties as the deed huns, as in their eyes, the Old Firm brand is too fundamental to the money game in Scotland to let it pass into history.
In that respect, they are no different to thousands of our own supporters and all our PLC board members. Yes, some older supporters would have reluctantly accepted the club that spawned the Lisbon Lions and were the first to nine in a row was no longer alive and would have either transferred their allegiance to junior fitba’ (St. Rochs?) or just found something different to do on match days. However, at the end of the day, the new club would have been treated as being the same as the old club and taken its place as the Green Half of the Old Firm/Glasgow Derby brand cos that is what Celtic is …. whether you like it or not.
Well done gold on your article. I do think a large percentage of our support would have struggled to find out we had cheated. I certainly would. What I’m not sure of is how I would react. When it’s something so important in your life and something that helps binds your family together it would be hard to let that go. What I am certain of is that we would have been treated very differently and would not have been allowed to just leave all that debt behind and claim to be the same club. We would also have found that Spartans would have been given the place available in the league as that was “the rules” and we’d be starting our “journey” from far further down the pyramid.
Where I will take issue is the part where you seem to think that people who want us to spend decent money on players are hell bent on us following the Huns into liquidation. That’s nonsense and is the clarion call for people who are willing to accept having £30m in the bank and only one fit striker in our squad. That’s not sensible business gold and it’s certainly not good football planning. Please don’t say that we had two because griffiths was there. Brendan said he inherited Leigh’s problems from Ronnie so it was in the post for a long time. Also we knew we had problems at right back and centre half and we still have those problems. It’s looking increasingly likely we will still have those problems at the end of this window which means we start next season bedding in 3 players out a back four. In the interim I think I’m right in stating that we are going to pay tax on the profits we have made.
Which brings us back to the original point about the Huns. They don’t pay tax they need to pay and we pay tax we don’t need to pay. Help ma boab. I know we like to set ourselves apart from them but that’s taking it too far surely.
I have to go to work now and I’m not sure what reason I’ll give for being late so excuse me if I don’t read back till later on but wanted to let you know I appreciate you taking the time to pen your thoughts.
Hi, how are you.
Yes having £30m in the bank and only one striker is not on – however right up to the last day of the window we thought we would still have Mousse.
What should we spend on a right-back £6m?, yes and I think we will. What should we spend on a centre-back, again £6m and I think we will. The loans we have will not be cheap – I’m sure Benkovic (£3m), Burke(£1.5m) and Weah(£1.5m) are costing around £6m in wages and that’s before any temporary transfer fee is paid.
Including Eduard and Bayo, our spend this season could be around £30m in permanent signings and loans – £6m (RB) + £6m (CB) + £6M (Loans)+ £2m (Bayo) & £9m (Eduard) – add in Perez, Gutman & Arzani – not much change from £30m.
Well done Gold.
I’ve got mixed feelings about loans. On the one hand I like the old romantic notion that we should buy less but better, build a team for the future. On the other hand look at the amount of players we have in our squad who have not worked out and we can’t get rid because they are on contracts with decent wages. At least with loanees they will be off our books in a few months if they are no use. So much of transfer activity seems to be a gamble. Regardless of who the manager is, the chief scout or dare I say it, the CEO. I can’t think of one single club who gets it right all or even most of the time.
Hi JTT53.
It is an urban myth that Celtic are not spending money on the squad – as I said above, with a new RB & CB in, we wiil have spent around £30m – add to that the fact that we turned down £9m for Boyata and Tierney, McGregor, Forrest, Christie and Rogic have all had new long-term deals.
The reason there is panic is that the Ibrox mob is on our tails, and the reason for that is SEVEN shocking displays away from home this season – had we played as we can, we would be 15 points ahead and the title would be won.
GOLD
Again,which you alluded to in your article. Very prescient!
I haven’t given up hope yet. Not by a long shot. I think it was RD’s first season we started off poorly. But we kicked off in late November. Won the league. Never say die.
Gold,
I think some of the above figures are massaged to give support to the argument you are putting forward.
Firstly, the £9m for Edouard. While no one is in a position to confirm with complete certainty, I would argue that it’s highly unlikely that the £9m is paid in a one-off up front payment. Given his youth and potential I’d imagine there are multiple conditional clauses (as is common in transfers) and so while Celtic will eventually pay that amount, it will likely be over multiple seasons.
As for spending £6m on a new RB and CB, we have signed quality players for less. We don’t need to jump to spending £6m per player (given that we have only ever spent that amount on players at the turn of the century and, more recently, Edouard). We just need to move away from buying players for circa £1m who, on the face of it, are unlikely to ever be a success.
The figures for the outlay in loan wages is way off; £3m for Benkovic- do you think Celtic are pay nearly £60k per week for him? He is the best paid player at Celtic by a huge margin, all of which is picked up by the club? I’d imagine we are contributing to wages and there will be a transfer fee (although no idea on amount), but no way we are covering the full bill. The same goes for Weah and Burke; we are only paying £2m for a permanent striker but are willing to pay £1.5 in wages for Burke, a 21 year old on loan for 6 months from Championship side, West Brom?
Also, Edouard’s signing was covered in the last accounts and it was noted that we had a net spend of zero.
So taking away the figures for potential signings, the fees included in last year’s accounts and the exaggerated wages for the loanees, our total spend so far this year is probably much closer to £5m? Then you have to consider the sum for Dembele (probably paid in installments) and the money already in the bank. We are in a huge surplus.
Hi RS.
Eduard’s fee has not been rubbished by any media outlet – so regardless of the payment arrangements it will still be £9m – he is a new permanent addition this season so I think I am entitled to count him in.
Why would the likes of Leicester, PSG and West Brom give us players if we were not prepared to cover their wages. Weah probably valued at £15m, Burke we know cost £15m twice, and Benkovic cost £13m – all well outwirh our means to buy. – £1.5m for the former two for six months and £3m (25% of his 4 year deal) for a season for Benkovic is the right kind of figures. The board know what the Ibrox club are doing and thinking. King and Gerrard think they can take us this year – we are responding and it costs real money.
I think we will sign two new players in the £4m/£6m bracket.
If we have a surplus in the bank then it allows us to sign players this season even when we have no CL money.
Dave King said that if we were deprived of one season’s CL money, we would collapse like “a pack of cards”. Of course we won’t, because we don’t budget for CL money and we have money in the bank.
Celtic FC is a business and must be run as a business, otherwise there will be no 7..8.. 10 in a row – no trebles, and no money to invest in the future.
I am much more concerned about the abject displays at Paisley, Livingston, Motherwell, Kilmarnock, Easter Road, Tynecastle and Ibrox. The results were bad but the performances were dire.
If we get more of them in the next six months we are runner-up. How can form very so much from week to week – that is the football department conundrum. HH
Gold,
Thank you for your article. It has made me think… a process that has become more difficult as the years roll past. You have given me a new weapon to use in my analysis of all things Celtic. What is that weapon, you ask? Simply put, it involves substituting the term, “Celtic” for “Rangers or Sevco” whenever I read about an incident involving the new club. So, to illustrate, how would I feel if Beaton’s performance had favoured Celtic rather than Sevco? I suspect my outrage would be considerably less than it is at present. Thank you for giving me a new lens through which to view events.
There is a two Ronnies sketch in a bar where wee Ronnie is Irish and big Ronnie is a local. The sketch is chatacterised by the use of the key phrase by little Ronnie, “Lord Knows!” “whose parrot is that?” Says Big Ronnie. Wee Ronnie uses the catch phrase and so it continues. This sums up perfectly how I feel about what would have happened if it was us who went into admin and then liquidation. I’d like to think that the majority of the support would have been shamed but I am not sure.
Since I no longer can go to games, it is difficult to judge the potential reactions of fellow supporters. I suspect that for many the cultural associations that drive their loyalty would dominate and they would support the new club. For fans like me that do not have either a Catholic or Irish background, the situation might be a spoiler.
To a large degree, I suspect that my case is vastly distinct from that of most supporters. I say this not to suggest superiority but to highlight my motives for following Celtic.
When I discovered football and given the affiliations of my mates, it was natural to follow the Gers. I did for a number of years until I encountered my first Old Firm game. The bile and hatred that I experienced on and off the park from that game turned me away from Rangers. But I loved football, so what to do? Celtic were a club open to all and the proof was in the team in the form of non Catholic players. On the terrace as well, the reaction of most fans was towards the team and not acts of hatred towards the other side. I had found a home.
Given all of that, if the Rangers situation had Celtic as the main player, I think I would walk away permanently. Somehow, I feel that I would not be representative of the majority of the support, but I hope I am wrong.
Thank you, Gold, for forcing my introspection!
Rebus
Gold,
It’s fine to consider the transfer fee for Edouard being £9m (although this was covered and netted off in last year’s accounts; we received about £15m in transfer fees for Sviatchenko, Armstrong and VVD monies).
On the loan deals and why the clubs would let us take players on loan? Well, the players you mention are all youth players; they are not first team players; their value decreases if they don’t play. As City and Chelsea have near perfected now, these teams use the initial loan and subsequent sale of youth players as a revenue stream. We are not getting Keane or Bellamy on loan – players in their prime who are out of favour; we are loaning players yet to solidify their positions at their respective clubs. Their loan to Celtic is beneficial to both parties.
Therefore, there is not a chance that we are paying £60k per week for Benkovic. That would make him the most expensive player ever to play for us? Do you believe that? Again, we are only paying £2m for a new striker but are willing to spend £1.5m in wages on a 21 year old West Brom reserve who won’t be a first team player for 6 months?
“If we have a surplus in the bank then it allows us to sign players this season even when we have no CL money.”
It’s not really worked out that way. We sold Dembele for £20m. So any money spent would not be drawn from the huge surplus, rather from the player we sold.
“Celtic FC is a business and must be run as a business, otherwise there will be no 7..8.. 10 in a row – no trebles, and no money to invest in the future.”
Of course it is. But it’s not binary: it’s not as simple as run the club as Rangers did before they died or run it as we are now; there is a middle ground which I would argue would be more beneficial to the club. The lack of investment in the summer hindered our hopes of qualifying for the CL and has hindered our league performances. Who replaced the quality of Dembele, Armstrong and Roberts? We were lucky that Christie emerged because otherwise we did not replace these players at all.
Celtic is a business but in order to have a strong business you need to have a strong team. Too often our directors forget this prosaic fact.
RS
I agree 100% that in order to have a strong business, you need a strong team, and furthermore I agree that last summer’s window was a disappointment – just to qualify, I really don’t think we expected Dembele to go at the last minute, and we certainly didn’t envisage Griffiths being AWOL.
I also agree that we steer the middle-ground.
There is no Machiavellian plot by the board to horde cash and/or to weaken the squad – but mistakes have been made, however we have a chance to rectify them in this window – I hope and believe we will. HH
Hi Rebus.
I could not envisage myself having the will to continue supporting a club that had perpetrated such a litany of wrongdoing. It has always been the Celtic way to strive to win, but not at any cost, and under ANY circumstances.
I have yet to hear anyone of a Rangers persuasion offer even the hint of an apology for the industrial scale of their cheating, lying and financial hooliganism.
All that matters is that ‘we are the people” and will soon be back in our rightful position.
….and what do we get from our enemies, the media, and even some of our own – that we the most financially successful club ever in the Scottish game runs it’s financial affairs out of a biscuit tin.
You make such an important point regarding the bike and hatred – unfortunately we have our share.
I want Celtic to be successful in an honest and sporting way, an I think that by and large we have achieved that.
HI Gold and many thanks for todays food for thought .
I have never asked myself what if we did that . I like to think theres enough smart people in our support that would scream “ blue “ murder should they find the club cheating ,, but these last few years have left me scratching my head about the supporter base in the main .
I have no doubt they mean well , but seem incapable or are apathetic to uniting for the cause of a better game. I almost said any cause but then thats not true as Wee Oscar ( God Bless your Soul wee man ) and Bringing Martin home ( RIP Kano ) campaigns were unifying , perhaps due to the Plc’s blessing and / or every blog getting behind what were clearly good causes .
If any headway is to be made in getting the average fan to stop and think it seems it would take either a unifying figure or cause and at the minute the average sees neither as we are winning .
On Rangers / Sevco ,,, at some stage the support is going to have to accept they are the same entity . The old saying if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck springs to mind .
Grab anyone that not a fan of Scottish football and should they be on the tv tell them thats not rangers and watch the incredulous look on their face .
Im over it personally , they got away with it . A team playing in the same arena , same strip , same fans , and same honours , yet some would tell me thats not Rangers . Very strange .
Perhaps in a book somewhere theres a form stating a version of Rangers were liquidated but I fail to see what if anything that changes . Just my own opinion .
If Res12 does not get an inquiry into the events surrounding the entire game from when minty took over then you can forget any stripping of titles and historic honours .
Thats the only way I can see any difference being made on that front .
Now the Plc could and should have made their position clear , but pussyfooted around that particular issue and then went the whole hog and stuck the knife in the support with their 49 pieces of silver .
Transfer fees,,its funny that we now apparently know how much players cost after years of undisclosed fee . That term suited all parties and kept our hands close to our chest . Wonder why that changed , if the Plc said grant them that piece of info .
It does seem though we hear the maximum fee and not the baseline , as everyone knows Eduoard didnt cost that much up front .
I will do a bit of digging and see when exactly fee’s starting getting announced ,, we all knew Virgil cost 2.8 for instance . Perhaps it became too awkward to stay hidden in modern day negotiations and we just decided to roll with it.
On above “ Celtic fc is a business and must be run as a business “
Glasgow Celtic seems to have turned into a business yes , and finding that line between football club and business is not easy . Theres money in the bank and gaps in the squad , yet a businessman might say theres enough players , no more .
Now we know the suits are in charge , majority shareholding etc . One big issue I have is ,,, if there arent going to use their personal fortune ( I am perfectly happy with that ) then whats the difference between you or me being there ? One doesnt need to be rich seemingly as they wont be asking you for some of your dosh , unlike what is apparently happening across the city .
Therefore there is zero obstacle to a fan on the board , or should I say a different make up of the board . And then if thats pie in the sky stuff ,, I would love to know ( and shall endeavour to find out ) how much of a percentage must one hold to get a seat on the board ?
Would that be a feasible undertaking for a supporters org or even a blog or blogs ,, to raise enough funds to put a fan on the board ?
I feel football is in a holding pattern with everyone anticipating big moves meaning either superleagues or mergers , but somethings gotta happen . The juggernauts are tearing away so they either do their own thing and leave the rest to it ,,, or the funds get spread more evenly .
I have a feeling a big big club will get into bother and that will force change .
Coincidently , Man City could well be that club as todays Times has them being thrown out of the Champs league for a season for knowingly breaching ffp .
It also has some good news for Majoc and Cosy Corner Boy that the Valencia striker on loan from Chelski is getting sold ,, that can only help us them losing their man before facing us !
Hail Hail from a rainy overcast central Cali
RS,
You certainly gathered no moss with your post. Put something up that I disagree with else Ibshall have nothing to add. Finding the “middle way” is the tricky part.
Forgive me if I slip into statisticaleeze for a minute.
In statistical testing there are two types of error that can be made. Statistical tests basically ask the question, should we change the status quo? Take an artificial example that the status quo is that Celtic are adequately served by tge RBs on the books. The alternative is that the current stock of RBs is not adequate and we need a higher quality addition. Now for the errors that can occur when we try to decide which of these two situations is nearer reality. First we have tge Type 1 error which involves rejecting the status quo when we should not have. Basically, that means buying a RB when we did not need him. Finally, there is the Type 2 error where we the alternative when we shouldn’t have. In our example, this means sticking with our existing RBs when we need a replacement. Sorry if this is long winded!
Most organisations fear the Type 1 error more than the Type 2 which, in my view, is a mistake. Celtic is such an organisation, I am afraid. So the thinking under the Type 1 error is Lustig is OK in most games and Ralston will improve and take over the position eventually, let’s not spend money unnecessarily. However, the CEO and the Board are not daft. They realise that the support will be disappointed with the non-arrival of a quality RB, so they mitigate the error by buying a cheaper RB like the one that Killie has. Hence we end up with the results of Type 1 errors for three and four years……Hayes, Hendry, Ciftci, Mulumbo and a good few of the loans as well.
Failure to recognise Type 1- itis means little changes as the club constantly sticks with the status quo.
As Disraeli said there are lies, damned lies and statistics!
Rebus
Rebus,
The Type 2 error is rejecting the alternative when we should not have…..sorry for the typos in the original.
Seems like I have uncovered a Type 3 error……..Typos!
Rebus, the Humbled
?Top notch Mahe.
Talking about Man City. I would hate to support a club like that. The money is so overwhelming from the boardroom to the dugout to the pitch that there can be no real bond between supporters and players – it’s all a sham – a giant game of football Monopoly.
One last thing – can you imagine the outcry if Brendan had left and we appointed Ole Gunnar Solskjaer?
Gold, I suspect Ole Ole will get the job and he seems to have earned a shot so why not.
We had out own Ole Ole , a young popular explayer who showed something when given the chance.
However unlike Ole Ole he had his best players sold and was handed replacements he thought subpar, remember.
A season without the champs league is huge for City , who will just win the double that year I guess. At one stage they were the working class club , now the are Frankensteins monster.
While you’re around at the end of the window we must get an answer from everyone which loan in the top flight will impress most / do the best ?
Gauld could well win that one. Defoe will score. Weah might turn out a cracker !
Hail Hail
Wages for loanees?Well,as I see it,it is a dual satisfaction thing.The lender reduces his wage bill,and the borrower gets a player at a price.Now,if I were the borrower the MAX I would pay would be 50% and then not that if it exceeded any wages I was already paying,otherwise I would have said player banging on my door!The lender gets game time for his ‘superfluous to requirements’ player.
The ‘ would I not follow Celtic’ scenario for me is a non-runner.
Noted Valencia player position! Can we get his friends’ tickets as he will not be playing?
My reply popped up after first item,an age thing obviously ?
Well I don’t believe there is any plot, but they are hoarding cash, we can see that from the accounts. We hold gross cash reserves of nearly £50m (before considering the record sale of Dembele).
I think that we are suffering from a mix of incompetence and misguided policy in the boardroom. Unfortunately, that could drive Rodgers away and the architects of the plan will remain unaffected.
some interesting posts today. Hegemony… its all about why they believe TATP, while we act like we arent. And who really benefits…
Didn’t know that Gauld had signed for Hibs. I remember seeing him at Dundee United, and thinking that he was a great prospect and that his time in Spain would turn him into a really good pro. Havent seen him play since, so I am interested to see how he looks now.
The big hoose is still open
They are still the peepil
where are we?
Knows not where he’s going to
making all his nowhere plans for nobody
The big hoose is still open
They are still the peepil
where are we?
oops
Knows not where he’s going to
1 our father
2 hail Marys
3 Act of contritions
and a 119 Holy Willies
COSYCORNERBHOY
It does that on the poster’s device until you refresh the page. On everyone else’s,it appears as it should.
Another example of WordPress screwing with our brains!
Good comment on CQN earlier,and nice of JAMESGANG with the compliments!!!
See you tomorow,call you about 11am.
Hi Mahe.
Just up and about, showered and having my early coffee.
Surely Virgil was the only ‘best player’ we sold during Ronny’s time – he wanted to go, not much we could have done.
Interestingly, we still have 14 in our first-team form that time – actually seem so far away.
New Article Posted!