Money in the Benk?
A poster recently pointed out that finding a good player is similar to getting a good player on a long term loan as they only last two seasons maximum , only we bank some cash .
Its basically true though , the most we could expect or get is two seasons from a real good loan , like Patrick Roberts for instance .
Paddy had been there seen it and done it with the club and thought he would try his hand elsewhere and it would be good for him . I would have agreed in principle and he claimed it was fruitful before an injury forced him onto the sidelines.
That that club and Patricks time together was fruitful could be the clincher in capturing his signature , should those discussions ever take place.
Talking of buying a loanee though I was pondering just how much roughly would we have to fork out for Benkovic ? Hes a classy act , and would be a great signing if affordable and also if he wishes to stay . Hes the loanee I would be pulling out the stops for thats for sure .
But Im dreaming right ?
How could it be sold to him , a potential move .
Green tinted specs warning of course. First its a four year contract but you leave after 2 years with our blessing or sign a new deal with us should all parties be happy .
Two years as number one name on the teamsheet ,,, winning medals and showing your skills in Europe is very beneficial for your development . Just look what we did for Virgil eh .
After that two years you will command a move and get a starting berth at a Epl club , history shows our bhoys do.
Your current parent club are willing to let you develop for those two seasons and wish first option on you .
He might be tempted, but then the big drop in wages would put him off , what could we offer ?
Well Filip you will immediately be entering our top wage bracket . As that would be a big step down we are willing to offer you 50 percent of the profit on our selling fee ie we buy for 13 and sell for 25 you bank 6 million.
We want a 20 percent sell on fee on your next contract .
You play , learn , leave and earn !
Now onto Leicester,, do I think they would contemplate such a deal ?
Yes actually I do . Unless he is told hes is the squad , or even possibly a starter , then its going to be a case of well then I want to go on loan or get sold . Leicester may well be happy to say stay away and learn and if we need you we call you .
And then the fee of course is a biggie.
I would offer their money back and first dibs , an option to buy back , and thus everyones happy.
I dont think Leicester could stick much if any onto his price having not played him .
Their original outlay of 13 million Euro isnt that big at all by Epl standards, infact thats the bottom rung of their ladder . Many fans in that league would be horrified if a never played there before 13 million “ only “ player was given a starting berth at the very heart of defence in that tough league.
It doesnt tend to happen and such a player gets slowly introduced through cup games and maybe slots in for an injured player but is only holding the position .
2 seasons of silverware and a good chance of a shot in the Champions league group stages though would help any such transition big time.
The club itself is going through a major transition due to the tragic accident , more uncertainty.
And the manager that admired our bhoy Claude Puel just got sacked , more uncertainty.
Two seasons of settled stability knowing hes first choice might just be what the bhoy needs.
Would the numbers add up ?
Well we stepped up a notch for Odsonne , its only natural at some stage we will reach for the next rung on the ladder , and this is that rung . If you are going to step up and do some serious business then it would be only sensible to have a nice cushion to fall back on in reserve , a healthy bank balance so youre not leaning too heavily on your big buy(s) . Were covered there , check.
Also theres always a risk in any and every transfer ,, after all Odsonne gets a John Kennedy this weekend and we have taken a bath on approx 10 million or so ,,, my point is we are already taking big risks , so please dont think Mahe thats too big of a risk .
Sports athletes insurance also helps us not take the full bath should it ever come to that .
It would be too be of a risk to have too many big buys at once , but essentially adding a big buy to Odsonne is not a huge risk in the grand scheme of things .
We truly could consider them valuable assets .
So outlay 13 million
Wages 25k per week over two seasons approx 2.6 million
Total Outlay 15.6 million
Selling fee 20 million
Half profit 3.5 million
Future percentage from 40 million sale ,, 8 million
Total Profit approx 11.5 million
Selling fee 25 million
Half profit 6 million
Future percentage 40 million ,,, 8 million
Total profit approx 14 million
In the first scenario Benk would be earning approx 60k per week if translated ,, his reported wage now.
The second scenario would see the big man pick up roughly 85k per week if translated .
This system also provides a financial encouragement for the player to do well , ala the percentage of selling fee .
Obviously we cannot state what fee we will recoup if any , but can say with a large degree of certainty that he will increase in value . I honestly would envisage us pulling in at least 20 million , that bubble thats been bursting for years would finally need to burst if we were not going to get that for him imo.
Some might say that Virgils windfall covers the fee , and Scott Browns wages cover the salary so its as you were for a fine defender .
As I work it out if we “ use “ him for two years we can walk away profitable and with a bit of a higher profile . Top tier earners dont have just cause to complain or demand parity as he wouldnt break the wage structure either , just hoover up nicely on the back end . Also the bhoy might like it and stay long term , who knows maybe he would feel appreciated and at home !
So the way I read it we could break the bank for Benk . If we really wanted to and got creative , but where theres a will theres a way .
My question to you is would you do that deal above ?
Prove your bampotness by banging on about something , anything , and send it in for the crew
Yes jugling the numbers, it could be done – don’t think it will be however – too many variables in play – no least, as you point out, a serious injury.
That said however, with talk of a new manager coming in at Leicester, and of course a new chairman in situ, We maybe could get another year on loan. That would almost be like getting him on a four-year deal and leaving after two – of course this time there will be no incoming transfer fee for us.
Another point on transfers and how they are not as ‘clean-cut’ as many believe. If you have say a VVD on your books on a four-year contract and a club such as Southampton make an offer which you accept – the remaining two years of the original contract must be honoured and factored into asking price – so if VVD was on £1m per year, he would be due £2m from Celtic when he left – negotiations may reduce that figure, however that depends on goodwill from all parties.
Take the case of Scott Allan signing a pre-contract with Hibs. He might hang on till June as he will be on much higher wages at Celtic. Celtic may negotiate a fee with Hibs in January to cover the remainder of his contract. A free-transfer could happen if Hibs offered him a signing-on fee commensurate with his remaimg Celtic salary, which he would forego.
Our model as it stands with the players likely to be in the first-team squad could be as follows:
Purchased Players 65% (18)
Academy players 21% (6)
Players on loan 14% (4)
That seems to me to.be the ideal mix for our club – plus keep wages at 65% of turnover and we are set fair.
Just an additional point. In the EPL, 13 of the club’s get 54% of their revenue from TV money – the other 7, between 46% & 59%. Celtic latest figures (£100m) show we get precisely 3%.
Seven consecutive trophies, two trebles (one invincible), two CL group’s, one EL group and place in the last thirty-two and a world-class manager – all in the last 32 months.
Peter Lawwell is worth his salary and performance bonus!!!!
That’s a very thought-provoking post. I’ve actually been banging that drum for some time though with smaller %ages-hey,I’m Scottish! I think it makes perfect sense for both club and player,a co-operative of sorts.
With particular regard to Benkovic,firstly I don’t think that Puel has actually been sacked-not yet,anyway!-and secondly,that is a team teetering on the brink of serious decline. They have a number of first-choice players who are getting on in years,some who are nowhere near as good as they think they are,and others who are way short of the standard of the stars they were signed to replace.
It’s an accident waiting to happen. If I were either Benkovic or BR,I’d be trying to get the best deal possible at Celtic,as the alternatives are woeful for a future career.
Scoff if you like,but this is the guy that warned only the other day that Pocchetino risked Kane’s future by playing him too often.
Kane – There is only so may times you can fully stretch an elastic-band.
Leicester are in decline on the pitch, however surely there is big Thai money behind them.
Hope we cam get a deal on Benko.
I think there is something wrong with your VVD example. Are you saying that a player is due wages for the remaining two years of his contract even if he chooses/demands to leave? Surely not.
Interesting way of looking at things mahe and indeed thought provoking. I think it was rebus who said yesterday that we need to think of other ways to maximise our recruitment and this may be the way. I certainly think it would be a way of recruiting players that are at this time out with our reach financially. As regards Leicester, I agree with majoc – and that doesn’t happen often- anybody linked with them needs to take a deep breath. They will be the Blackburn of this decade in my opinion. Championship the year after next and struggling thereafter. Players and managers should think hard before heading there. I appreciate Benkovic is their player and would have to go but it will not help his career.
Re the big Perth powwow last night-is it true Stevie Clarke said he was washing his hair?
If the SFA think they have spiked Celtic’s guns over this,they best think again. And if Celtic Plc think-oh,that’s alright then,all our questions have been answered and all is well with the world,they can do one too.
Of course,we are still waiting,TWENTYWEEKS later,for the report into crushing at the hun game. Anyone would think that someone at Celtic Plc reckons that a statement followed by sod all does the job,that the fans will forget all about it by this time next week.
Bad enough that they treat us like something they trod on-a common problem when you walk all over people-without treating us like goldfish.
It’s way past the time that the self-serving shower got off their arses and did what they are richly overpaid for.
HI MAHE, as usual another one of your thought provoking posts, to be perfectly honest despite living within 30 minutes of old Trafford and anfield, I just wont watch the epl,, okay you might say im jealous,, there is probably a bit of jealousy. but it is more to do with the hype and over inflated wages.than anything else, then again the blame lies with the big tv companies, so that’s it rant over.hh.
No I am not saying that – players don’t “ask for a transfer” any more – their agent pulls all the strings in the background. It used to be that if you asked for a transfer, you were de facto seeking to break your contract – under those circumstances selling clubs had no obligation to the player, who usually got a signing-on fee from his new club.
However if a player is two years into a four year contract and another club bids for him,
and his present club accept that bid, the player is then allowed by his current club to speak/negotiate personal terms – in essence it is his agent who will negotiate.
The original contract has not been broken by the player and therefore when ‘the dust settles’, so also will the contract need to be.
Of course there is ducking & diving goes on, but a contract is a contract and has to be honoured.
On the Boyata case – if Celtic accepted a bid this month and he was transferred, say for £5m – Celtics payout to him would only be six months wages – a great deal for so-called money-grabbing Lawwell.
The buying club would hand over the £5m to us, and Dedryk’s signing on fee would be much reduced.
However Brendan wants him to stay and honour his contract – therefore Celtic lose the transfer fee (£5m), which will be picked up by Dedryk’s agent in June – nice work if you can get it.
Incidently, PL’s handling of the VVD deal was exemplary – £12.5m initial fee and £7.5m sell on fee – that’s worth his bonus on its own.
? Of course some will argue that Jeanette Findlay would have done much better.
I also have to disagree with your hypothesis about paying up a contract. The only part of the contract which is valid to be paid in full is the loyalty bonus,and then only when the player hasn’t asked for a transfer. If a buyer bids for a player,the bid is put to the player by the seller. If he accepts,then and only then will any negotiation between player and seller occur.
Remember,BOTH parties have agreed to end the contract early. If,say,Mulumbu is on £10k a week and accepts an offer from a team on £5k a week,Celtic may offer him £2k a week to facilitate the move. Mulumbu thinks this works for him,as the new deal has 30 months to run,not six. Alternatively,Celtic may offer nothing,as the new deal is already a better one for the player.
But VVD,also on £10k a week,wants to move to Southampton for £50k a week. There is nothing to discuss between buyer and seller
Additionally,each loan is dealt with on its individual merits. In the case of,say,Patrick Roberts on £40k a week,Celtic may agree to pay £10k a week of that. This is in line with their wage policy,and suits Man City as they have an asset gaining valuable experience instead of mouldering on the bench. However,when we lend a young player on £3k a week to the likes of Dumbarton,they can’t pay a quarter of his wage. The deal is worked to the benefit of both clubs AND the player.
Cases such as you describe are rare,and tend to only happen when a very high value player is having trouble settling in at a new club. Another club will offer to take him off their hands,but will not pay a transfer fee for damaged goods. The clubs then agree a loan fee for an agreed period,with an option to buy at a given sum. The loan fee is usually deductible from that fee.
Everyone has to guard their assets;no-one wants assets mouldering on the bench. But each deal is individually thrashed out,there is no formula to it,and sometimes it seems little rhyme or reason either.
In short(too late-ed),when a player is on the up,the old contractual terms are ignored. When he is on the slide,they are negotiated. Rarely if ever are they paid in full.
Technically, what G says is correct; if Celtic breached a contract, they would be liable for damages for breach of contract (typically, the remaining amount of the contract). However, a party claiming damages for breach of contract is subject to a duty to mitigate (minimize) their damages, by finding other suitable employment (which amount is deducted from the amounts awarded for the breach.
So, if we want a player off the books, and he has no other offer, he can insist upon being paid in full in accordance with his contract (boerigter, I believe)
If we agree on a transfer to a club where the player earns less, he has the right to seek the difference between his old wage and his new wage.
But a player like VVD, who earns more under his new contract, would have no damages. However, he could insist upon a payment to move, and Celtic could pay him to ensure the deal goes through. However, that seems unlikely as he would have no legal right to enforce such a claim, and he would have to reject the move (and would, again, be faced with a mitigation argument).
(1) If a player says he will not sign a new contract and the club actively look to sell him rather than let him run down his contract and leave for nothing – why should he not be paid his full entitlement?
(2) If a club decides to sell a player because they have received an offer that can’t be refused, why should he not be paid his full entitlement?
Hi again Majoc.
Article 13 states that a contract between a professional and a club may only be terminated upon expiry of the term of the contract or by mutual agreement.
Youare missing the point in what I said. In the case of a player having a contract,he is entitled to have it paid in full. Of course he is. But when an offer is acceptable to both player and club,the player would be getting paid by buying and selling club at the same time under your scenario.
If he wants his full contract paid,he stays for the length of it. If he leaves early for another club with a better contract,he has no claim on the outstanding part of his contract.
On the other hand,if it is for a lower contract just to get out of the place,then the selling club has an obligation. But not generally for the full outstanding amount.
I don’t quite understand your viewpoint on it. It’s simple common sense. As well as common practice.
Yes, but if the player leaves during the last two years of his contract, he has beached said contract. Hence the selling club is not obliged to pay out.
Selling clubs may offer a loyalty payment to a departing player depending on how long they have been with the club, but it is not a pay out of the contract.
If a club wants to get rid of a player by releasing him, then there will be discussions to arrive at a mutualy acceptable payout for both parties.
Any change will also involve negotiation with the player’s agent a d a fee will be involved there but that is distinct from any payment to a player.
At least, that is my take on it,
Left field thinking is always useful….and that is what you have supplied. I once attended a seminar by Edward De Bono….he of lateral thinking fame.
He gave an interesting example of the potential of left field thinking. He said let us consider putting the cockpit of an aircraft on the bottom of the fuselage rather than the top. What would be the advantages of doing that? Once you have determined these advantages, ask yourself how can we modify our existing design to include some of these advantages. This where you come in, Mahe.
To get back to your specifics, I wonder if your proposal involves third party ownership. Seems like it to me.
Perhaps we could partner with a EPL club and bring in promising young players on a split ownership basis, say 30-70% , Celtic – Club X. Celtic have the player exclusively for 2-3 years and then the player is transferred to either Club X, or elsewhere and profit shared on the 30-70 basis. Real Madrid did this with Samuel Ito, I believe. Vagiely, I seem to recall that FIFA and UEFA did not like third party ownership?
John , you actually answered ! thanks , nobody seems to have grabbed that . I believe Leicester are up for sale after the tragedy , more uncertainty . We could if we waned I feel , its not that far off Odsonnes fee ,,and like I mention Virgils windfall and Scotts wages ( which look to be freed up when/if he departs for Oz ) cover this deal . In my easy peasy football manager mind anyway . Have a good weekend pal . Hail Hail
I’d imagine there would be a simple break clause (as is common in many commercial and financial contracts) that if the club accepts a transfer and the player accepts the new club’s contract then the current contract is extinguished.
There is no way Celtic pay out contracts on players that are sold to other teams (even if for reduced wages). They may pay out contracts to players who they can’t get rid of (Compper) but that is a different situation entirely.
I think you misconstrue our recent success. It’s very much because of BR and in spite of the board. BR has made PL look very good and, as has been quoted often on many a blog, BR was brought in at DD’s request (following the semi final loss when DD was abused by the Sevco director).
Gold , in all my days we have only lost 1 player , potential star that he was big John , to a career ending injury. A single player. And medicine / sports science is extremely advanced now that the chances can be negated and with insurance you never take the whole bath .
I think it works obviously . The biggest flaw is an unknown bonus ,, no set wage but you would be able to figure out roughly where you will stand , or at least your agent should be able to project what you will be looking at roughly .
Then the player is in the situation , can I / do I want to live on the normal wage , and take a big bonus in two years? Or should I just forget these guys and find a club that will pay me the same roughly only no bonus just big wages ?
Should that situation arise , then having a positive impression on the player during his time here is key , as not only does he know what hes getting into , but he likes what hes getting into , and thus is willing to listen more and possibly be flexible. Hope alls good.
?Hope so – didn’t know they were up for sale.
Hi again RS.
OK we will agree to disagree – forget about the actual sums – PL is value for money and BR, who earns three times as much, is too.HH
Rebus ,, as usual your profession comes through in your views, and we as a blog benefit from that , chapeau !
Left field ,, not sure about that ,, I just like to think Momma didnt raise no sucker !
Anyway one day we made a big pot of orange marmalade . Broke it into 5 parts and put a different food colour in each part and got people to try the different coloured marmalades and asked them to name the flovour .
Surprise surprise , everyone got it wrong , they all said the red was strawberry , the dark blue blackberry , green lime flavour etc . Every single person basically went with pre existing notions . To their detriment as they all fell a tiny but in my eyes 😉
Until later , baby just woke !
SFTB , If you happen to look in ,, would you sign that deal ? Be curious on your take on this one partner ?
Not to be in constant disagreement with you (although it may seem that way!), but it’s too myopic to only consider the BR era. Look at the managers our board appointed prior to him: Mowbray, Lennon and Deila. One was a complete disaster, the other poor (but fortunate the league was bereft of Hibs, Hearts and Oldco’s new iteration) and Lennon was a success (but an unknown quality and cheap option when appointed).
BR has brought in untold success and masked over issues; but the same parsimony and unwillingness to push on at board level still remains.
As for PL being good value for money, I believe he is in absolute terms in the top 5/6 highest paid directors in UK football (when bonus is included). In relative terms, he must be the highest given that he takes 2% of the club’s revenue in income. Can you say he is worth that amount (even within the sphere of corporate greed)?
Also, PL earned just shy of £2.6m last year so I doubt the claim that BR earns just shy of £8m could be correct.
Left field was not meant as a zing. Outside the box may be better.
On my profession, so called, we are all prisoners of our genes and experiences! Or should that be “jeans”?
Some interesting ideas … and I think you are right about stopping the practice of third party ownership of players ..the EPL banned the practice in 2008 after Tevez and Mascherano, and more recently (2015, I think) FIFA got on board and banned the practice world wide…
However, since then, agents (mostly, bloody lawyers) have sought and found loopholes including buying shares in a club, with a view to cashing in with a cut of transfer fees netted by the club; providing a “loan” to a club and being repaid plus “interest” from sell-on fees; and acting as an agent in order to receive a cut from sell-on fees as “commission”.
Eventually, the rules will be changed to close these loopholes, but then others will arise …
Thank Fork it’s a Friday!
Wheres yer man fae the Brig?
Probably asking the wee blade to let him post centenary pish??
Interesting post Mahe.
Gold and Rebus, very good well thought out leaders, thanks.
Gold, I see you are still biging up Pedro for doing his job, anyone who does deals will insert sell on fees, so you will need to think of something else that justifies his bonus cos doing his job doesn’t cut it I’m afraid 😉
Mahe, I very much doubt our leader will see things like you are seeing, problem we have as a club we won’t spend serious money, so from the onset we are hamstrung in what we do, I am only going on how things have happened in the past and see no reason that we will change the strategy.
IMO our recruitment is an absolute joke, again we are going to attempt to qualify for europe with a makeshift defence, a complete shambles.
Fairhill, my Mon team would wipe the floor with his centenary bhoys 😉
TeT well it might be games but BR said no central defender to arrive.
I think the percantage of profit might be the way to go,,finding diamonds un the rough like Virgin , or contract rebels like Moussaka , isn’t a strategy, and is increasingly difficult to pull off. Go with youth or get creative.
Just saw your post (Fairhill Bhoy wee yin watching Corrie 🙂
Mahe, read your post on way to work about 12hrs ago, don’t think Benkovic would even consider signing with us permanently and totally down to weekly/monthly wage, your sums read well in normal business but not football, I would imagine Benkovic is on minimum £50k a week (being a £13m signing) for Leicester, I think the young mhan likes playing for Celtic and hopefully winning another couple of trophies this season will add to his enjoyment BUT …. a Crystal Palace, a Leeds, a Bournemouth etc would come in with £20m if Celtic ever agreed a fee with Leicester as you said in your leader a £10m+ down there is small change
Have enjoyed all the articles this week decent read on the way to work
Of course it’s not a strategy, but it’s what the club adhere to, I should have said policy.
For years now I have been advocating youth, we should spend more on the academy and employ the best coaches we can find, but we won’t, the policy dictates that we look for the rough diamonds, but as you say it’s becoming harder and harder, yet we don’t waver one iota from the policy, been bumping my gums that it’s a very good policy if it was tweaked every so often, sadly it seems that the suits who decided on the policy are not for turning, now where have I heard that before 😉
It’s gonna be very interesting to see what happens if we blow this league, cos it’s on the cards, the powers that be are gearing up for stop the eight never mind the ten, I honestly think if they fail this year they will fail for the foreseeable, they have gone all in imo, it’s in our own hands.
I hope you are all well.
I see the SFA and the refs are controlling the agenda, again.
The refs should be told to go full time, it’s a cosy wee clique for them. They all have professional jobs and top it up by being a ref, at 800 quid a time. Very little accountability to anyone.
I know 2 players, one playing in the championship and one in the 1st division both are on 300 quid a week.
Good evening Sir and my clan is well thanks for asking.
Full time refs cost apparently 2k a week. 100 or so a year. And the league would need what, ,10 or so ? Maybe even 20? 2 million a year for refs?
They will take it out of cup competition money and tv money if they do it. Hampden won’t just give up 2 million easily.
I remain to be convinced they are sincere.
Hail Hail pal
Huns requested their game be called off and the sfa bring in a grade one ref to oblige, a wee bit in the corner was a bit hard according the Cowdenbeath and they were sure they could have fixed it in time.
The only positive is all the huns who have taken time off work, travel etc and no game, feck them.
I seen it on Twitter, it really is a wee bit in the corner.
Seemingly Cowdenbeath asked Premier Sports to film them training on the pitch, after the game was called off.
I notice it was a local ref who was called in to call it off. Cowdenbeath are raging, once again Scottish football stinks.
THE EXILED TIM AND JIMMYNOTPAUL, why should we be astonished by this, the establishment team rule the roost in my country, yes although I live in England now I was born in glenboig, Lanarkshire Scotland, I was going to say im proud to be Scottish but unfortunately im not.hh.
They are so in your face about it, nobody has the balls to challenge them, it’s a disgrace, like Brendan going to that farce last night, they will still cheat us with impunity, scunnered.
I heard Derek Johnstone on clyde earlier, he reckoned that it’s cold and will prob get colder and the wee hard bit could spread all over the pitch, I kid you not.
No astonished, it’s par for the course, just miffed that nobody questions them
What TET says.
Stevie Clarke knew it was a farce.
WTF was the point in it, a sop to us and we allowed them to take the piss even more by attending.
Aye Stevie doesn’t have much time for them.
Was just pondering as one does about things and it occurred to me that we really are not getting bang for our buck we spend on wages.
In La Liga here the average wage is £25K a week, if you take into account those from Barca and Real where they command huge wages the average drops below £20K a week, that is well within our wage structure, we could do well by scouting here and France is even lower, yet we fart about elsewhere, some will tell you we are a very well run club, the best in the land even, what a crock of crap, we don’t have a clue when it comes to getting value for money, all the deadwood is your answer, we can’t get rid cos we pay them far too much for doing feck all.
TET, Derek Johnstone said THE PIES were cold. A wee bit in the corner, (even though it was a round pie, but it’s BFDJ after all) but it could spread all over the pie if left too long (again, not applicable to BFDJ as he’d never leave it too long), so call the game off. SFA agree, reschedule it to Ibrox, Huns get more money as it would be a sell out, 400 million tickets sold, and BFDJ gets a really hot pie. (And a lot of any unsold lukewarm ones)
I didn’t quite hear the pie bit, dugs were barking, I did hear about the huns being in in different stratosphere cos they are the mighty rainjurz, but you will be spot on about BFDJ and the pies.
Good to see you here btw.
Billybear, welcome aboard.
Just seen the news about the game,,shakes head with a rye smile,,
These bassas are ripping the arse out of things and it will either drive people from the game or gore the game to stand up.
Worst thing is the culprits can just retire and new guy says wasn’t me.
Gotta get outta there or fix it, and there’s been less than zero progress on the latter.
At least Belfast Celtic is back starting next season. Canna wait to see the strip.
Glasgow could take a hit here in the long run.