The last few days have been bloody awful for the club and the support,but one of the worst reactions was from the away support on Wednesday. It has helped scrub the Stevie Clarke speech from the agenda,but really,are we as innocent as we usually claim? Allow a better man than I,Gunga-Din,to give his thoughts.
This from AULDHEID
Gotcha! The Race for False Equivalence.
The following article for CQN Magazine dated July 2015 first appeared in Celtic Underground in 2011 and it is worth resurrecting now in view of the responses to what Steve Clarke said a couple of weeks ago about bigoted abuse hurled at him at Ibrox.
This got similar media attention when Martin O Neil first voiced concerns on the matter in 2006 after which the foundations on which the current debate is based were built.
It is repeated here with a little editing as a historical look back at the events since 2000 that provide the platform on which Scottish football and Scottish media now stand to possibly provoke new thinking.
Hopefully some of the ideas contained will be sensible enough to take root to take us out of the ever more acrimonious “right to be offended” spiral that was the basis for The Offensive Behaviour at Football Act, now gone because no two men in the street could agree on or be certain of what was driven by bigotry with intent to offend or just attachment to a history that defines those singing on either side of the divide.
In order to assist in that quest, the Annex suggests how to tell if a song is offensive of itself but first…..
Once Upon a Time
We will all have laughed at Ant and Dec in the past when they played “Gotcha” on some unsuspecting celebrity and are probably most familiar with the term from the entertainment aspect.
However, “Gotcha” plays its part in the world of football rivalry, in fact it plays a key part and unwittingly or not the people of Scotland have been caught up or dragged into, depending on one’s perspective, a huge game of Gotcha between Rangers and Celtic supporters.
“Gotcha” and “I gotcha” are relaxed pronunciations of “I’ve got you”, usually referring to unexpected capture or discovery in a given situation.” (From Wikpedia) A Gotcha puts the subject in a position that they have no option but to accept the situation they have been caught up in. In football rivalry terms a Gotcha is something that cannot be defended against in the court of western World Opinon where our football is played and where UEFA operate.
The Gotcha game took on its present form back in 2006 when UEFA eventually decided that The Billy Boys was in fact sectarian. The argument put by the songsters was that the word “Fenian” whose blood the song glorified wading up to the knees in, did not relate to Catholics in the traditional West of Scotland usage by the singers of the song, who themselves were associated historically through their football club as Protestants. The rejection of this argument made the song an attack on a religious group (Catholic by association) by another group (from the Protestant religion by association) and so the song fell foul of a definition of what constitutes sectarianism.
(a member of a sect or faction, especially one who is bigoted in his adherence to its doctrines or in his intolerance towards other sects – On line Dictionary)
No one could argue once the association of Fenian with Catholicism was confirmed by football’s governing body UEFA that The Billy Boys was in fact sectarian. Well they could, and some still would argue, but the point is somebody in power outside Scotland ruled The Billy Boys had no place in football on sectarian grounds. This was the first “Gotcha” in that there was no way out, well apart from ongoing defiance that eventually led to sufficient punishments that made the singers realise they were only hurting their club. They were however one set of unhappy bunnies (or in this case Bears).
The next “Gotcha” was probably unique in football rivalry history in the sense of being a Gotcha own goal. The same mindset that found some sort of odd meaning for their lives in reveling in offering violence to Catholics, changed tack and decided if they could not continue to offer ill will and malice to Fenians in their country, they could at least wish them Bon Voyage (in the worst possible taste).
They came up with The Famine Song whose lyrics, apart from taking offensiveness/ill will/malice to new depths also managed to cross the line of what constitutes racism.
As I recall, the argument that the Irish in Scotland at whom it was aimed were not in fact members of a race (don’t laugh) was not pushed with any real vigor in Scotland. The defense of the singers was more on the lines of it was only banter, the case put forward by some in the media particularly Jim Traynor that it was just a ditty vacan..
However eventually, after the matter was raised by the Irish government, prompted by Celtic supporters, the realisation dawned on those who sung it, and those who defended it, that in fact it was an example of blatant racism. This made it another “Gotcha !”, self inflicted for sure, but a Gotcha nevertheless under the definition of a football Gotcha. If the Bear was unhappy before, its head nearly exploded now. However, that did not stop a vast majority of them belting out The Famine Song with gusto and unopposed by the law at the League Cup final in 2011.
That this occasion of defiance was then given the accolade by Justice Minister Kenny MacKaskill, who said
“The players, management and fans contributed to a memorable occasion, and I urge that their positive example inside the ground is replicated outside it over the course of the evening and beyond. Football is a force for good in society.”,
was stunning in its stupidity in terms of
a) appearing to condone the song sung,
b) alienating the police from the Celtic support and
c) creating the perception of a country too blind to see, too deaf to hear and simply out to get even with those who objected.
I mention (western) World Opinion in the definition of a Gotcha because history shows us that only when outside opinion is brought to bear (UEFA and The Irish Government respectively) on the behavior of both sets of supporters in Scotland that something is actually done about addressing it.
It is against this background the next Gotcha has made its appearance indeed was stimulated by the previous two.
The current equivalence focus was then and is now on the use of the words I.R.A by the Celtic support in their songs and chants.
Words are powerful but are not hermits, just as Fenian was associated with Catholic, I.R.A is associated with terrorism. Now there have been organisations throughout history where the terrorist became the Government because a legitimate cause was being fought for.
History vindicated the terrorist action taken, no matter how reprehensible at the time, and the “terrorism” of the IRA falls into the category of being an unfortunate necessary evil of human nature to right a wrong, to give the oppressed a say in their lives.
Ironically though, the peace in Northern Ireland was given a boost by an unrelated act of what appears to have been mindless terrorism on a vast scale never seen before in the world.
A brand of terrorism that is seen as violence for violence’s sake and where the perpretators have more chance of being eradicated from a great height or shot in their hideouts, than forming a new government or introducing more benign governance.
In his book Great Hatred, Little Room the author Jonathon Powell points out how support for the IRA at political and funding level evaporated in the USA almost overnight as the word “terrorism” took on a totally new meaning in the court of western World Opinion after 9/11/2001 following the attack on the World Trade Centre in New York.
In the post 9/11 world, “terrorism” took on a meaning where the perpetrators were viewed by reasonable people with abhorrence, perpetrators of violence without a cause, violence for its own sake by some thinking the number taken when the bomb on the suicide vest goes off means more virgins to enjoy in the hereafter.
This new meaning was seized on by Rangers men and applied to the IRA in a “Gotcha” attempt, largely successful, to remove the legitimacy conferred on the many justified terrorist action that litter world history. The French Revolution, American War of Independence, Bannockburn etc etc.
Like it or not history has changed the meaning of terrorism and attitudes towards it and the words I.R.A are now viewed with at least distaste if not abhorrence in the court of western World Opinion, a court too busy to be interested in understanding the old nuances and one which views “terrorism” as a term that is every bit as unacceptable as sectarianism or racism.
It is a “Gotcha!” and nobody outside Scotland is going to ride to our rescue as UEFA and the Irish Government did on The Billy Boys and The Famine Song. The Celtic support, like the Rangers support before us, have been caught in a Gotcha. More an opportunistic Gotcha of history than some cunning plan from the Baldrick mind, but a “Gotcha” nevertheless.
So what to do? The message that comes out of Great Hatred Little Room is that both parties on each side of the divide, no matter the distaste and distrust for each other, had to come to an accommodation, an accommodation that required each side to recognise their part in creating division and to take responsibility for ending it.
A feature of the Gotcha spiral, indeed what I believe gives it its emotional context, is that both sides feel that they have had or are having solutions imposed on them from the outside and indirectly by the other side.
It is unfortunate that outside pressure has been necessary, and it could even be argued it has been counter productive in that whilst rules have been or are being imposed, the mindset is that of defiance rather than acceptance that the world has changed and new ways of being rivals are required.
The Celtic support are in a position to take the initiative by recognising the Gotcha of the letter’s “IRA” and its new association with mindless terrorism that we find ourselves caught by.
However instead of defying the change, we could instead choose to accept the verdict of the court of Western World Opinion on the three letters, whilst at the same time and not conceding our traditional rights, also challenge the Rangers support to drop their defiance of the historical “Gotchas” they were caught by.
In effect agree on both sides what is and is not offensive in the court of westen World opinion. That means both sides identifying any songs/chants words that are covered by the criteria of sectarianism, racism or terrorism (as it is now seen) and agree to list and condemn them if they are sung by their own support.
It also leaves room for traditions that are not sectarian, racist or have mindless terrorist connotations to be recognised.
Some might see this as a form of appeasement. It is not, we are not Chamberlain going cap in hand to a powerful enemy with an offer desperate for peace. We are President Kennedy offering to withdraw the Jupiter missiles from Turkey in 1962 to help Kruschev sell the idea to the Kremlin hawks of withdrawing Russian missiles from Cuba. We can act from that position of taking control.
Some argue The Offensive Behavior Bill was the start of taking away our traditional songs like The Fields and indeed there has been definition creep of what constitutes sectarianism by an attempt to make the word “hun” sectarian, in another attempt at producing equivalence.
This must be resisted because songs and terms such as the Fields or their Rangers counterparts like The Sash or calling Celtic supporters “taigs” or “Tims” are not exposed to the court of western World Opinion.
They should not be subject to any Gotcha attempt and the fear, if it were to materialise, can be countered on the basis that these traditions are not sectarian, racist or associated with a terrorist organisation.
To try to include the likes of The Fields would be another step towards mutually assured destruction of both traditions. A line in the sand has to be drawn. Rivalry without the poison.
We Celtic supporters have the intellect and the ability to put a stop to this whole Gotcha nonsense, and in the process remove the need for strict liability externally imposed, which is what will happen if supporters of all clubs refuse to take responsibility for their own behavior and acknowledge the separate history that their songs celebrate, without being offended by them.
The only question is do we have the will, maturity and sense of statesmanship to make something sane happen?
Somebody has to.
How To Tell If a Song Is Sectarian
Originally written by Auldheid
Saturday, 21 February 2009
Every now and then a songs debate flares up in Celtic Cyberspace and the one thing you can be sure of is no agreement will emerge. This will always be so unless there is a set of criteria to go by.
Examining The Billy Boys offers one set of criteria for a sectarian song in that the words “up to our knees in Fenian blood” offers violence to a person of an identifiable religious faith either directly or in this case by inference, Fenian = Catholic.
If you take the Soldiers Song or The Fields that are deemed acceptable by Celtic if I understand it correctly. The thing about these songs is that they are “inward aimed” or “centred on self” celebrating that sense of self.
Sectarianism is defined as ” bigotry, discrimination, prejudice or hatred arising from attaching importance to perceived differences between subdivisions within a group, such as between different denominations of a religion or the factions of a political movement.
The key words are sub divisions WITHIN a group. The group involved with The Fields or Soldiers is a single group where no sub division exists.
For a song to be sectarian it has to project OUTWARD from that group ideas or beliefs that the group wish to impose on others or to express distaste or hatred for those OUTSIDE the group.
The key words are inward celebration and outward projection. The first cannot by definition be sectarian but the latter depending on the words can.
So why not use those criteria to at least draw a line?
Now on what is objectionable to others: songs that are inward celebrating might cause offence to others but they are the ones taking offence, it is not being offered to or aimed at them. It is something intolerant in them that sparks the offence taken. If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, why not offence? We as Celtic supporters are not responsible if others take offence at our songs of inward celebration. It is only when outward projection as in say add ons occurs that sectarianism might apply.
These criteria would apply to Rangers songs as well as our own.
This debate has been going on for ever. You would think someone would have penned official criteria from usage by now to give guidance to the support.
Note criteria is NOT a song list. Folk can use the criteria to look at what they sing and maybe think about why they are singing what they are. Inward celebration of belief/faith/culture/tradition or outward projection of those things on to others.
Question the motivation, using the criteria not the words and decide the intent of what is sung.
If abusive justify it to yourself without using whataboutery.
My grateful thanks for the above. I had said yesterday that my planned article would be on a similar subject,but I knew it was going to lack fluency.
When I was a kid,no-one was allowed on the supporters bus unless you knew The Rebs. Which was fun,and interesting,because a lot of them had historical significance which would be explained to me if I asked. Even though,as a wee lad,some of the answers shocked and frankly puzzled me.
How could such things be allowed?
As we moved further into the 70s,The Troubles intensified-and the song book took an uglier turn,IMO. No longer songs of sorrow and celebration for those who preceded us,but more of support for events in Ulster. As a callow youth,I was largely unable to differentiate,so more songs were learned.
It was when I met SOLKITTS and started the process of converting him to Celtic. That consisted of a few pints and him walking through the turnstiles,btw,he got it right away. So there I was at 18yo,shoulder to shoulder with my-non Catholic-best mate in The Jungle,and I suddenly thought…
Hmmm,not sure that song is appropriate,under the circumstances. Or that one. Or that one either. Which is strange,as my Mum’s side of the family aren’t Catholic either-but then,I wasn’t singing these songs in their living rooms.
I still think that the vast majority of our songs are political rather than sectarian,but the closed minds of others means that they will never be persuaded of this. So why bother? As AULDHEID says,what is the motivation for singing it? If I’m honest,back in the day,it was as much to get back at the huns as to support the team. Which translates loosely as “One’s as bad as the other!”
That’s an uncomfortable thought.
“Who is fuelling that?”
Sutton giving BR both barrels on BT Sports ‘He has down graded….Celtic reserves are bigger than Leicester City’.
Good stuff Auldheid, but you know as well as anyone that it’s just not gonna happen.
When you have the government bringing in new laws to catch the Celtic support so they can “even things up” you know that you are on a loser right away.
The real problem is that the government, the police and society in general are quite happy with the Irish-Catholic population being seen as and treated as second class citizens.
Things will NEVER even start to get any better while they allow Anti-Catholic marches through the street of scotland on a weekly basis, this is the real problem in society.
Appeasement has Never worked in the past.
Appeasement Doesn’t work in the present.
Appeasement will Not work in the future.
Gold from last thread, you wrote……..
“I have no axe to grind with anyone’s political beliefs – what I do resent is those who bring them into Celtic Park, attaching them to Celtic, and imposing them on the overwhelming majority of the support who are there only for the football.
We are fed up with “joining the “IRA”, “soon there will be no protestants at all”, ” sad Orange bastards” – this is nothing to do with our club and only a source of acute embarrassment.
We got rid of the monkey noises and banana throwing from the jungle years ago – let’s get rid of this latest infection.”
So why don’t you resent the boards political beliefs being imposed on you and the vast majority of supporters who are just there to watch the football ?
Granted I don’t attend the games any more but correct me if I am wrong, I was under the impression, from those who do attend every week home and away, that the songs and add ons were largely done away with at Celtic park.
As I said above and to you yesterday in a post you didn’t reply to.
It’s a societal problem, [the drugs] added to the rampant sectarianism in scotland via Orange walks the problems will never be stamped out, if anything they are only going to get worse as part of the population is marginalized.
Our hun board and support. Their fight is not for equality but money and percieved glory respectively. Collwctive scum. Explaining our supports reaction to Germans has been an interesting experience.
COME BACK AND BUY US BRENDAN
Can’t remember Sutty being so happy when WGS had him in the reserves
The extract you quoted was intended as my reply to you yesterday.
What exactly is the settled political view of the Celtic board of directors – quite frankly I haven’t a clue. I am not aware of any decision in the running of the club being influenced by any political party.
Brendan Rodgers is gone but the club will go on due to the strong infrastructure that has been put in place by all those “rogues” on the board.
From Resolution12 to the many excellent articles you have penned i have always thought you are the most sanguine guy in our entire support.
Well thought out article and the timespan shows how the narrative can be controlled by vested interests using current unrelated events.
I tend to agree with TET though that appeasement never works.
Has a bully ever backed off or stopped when the victim surrenders?
We have also seen in incidences like coughgate that they will make it up to suit their agenda
Maybe it would be a good time for the varying supporters groups to get together and decide how to respond to the best wee country.
There is no easy choice as the authorities and establishment control the message.
So long as Scotland remains a haven of institutionalised bigotry and sectarianism there will always be a place to voice opposition to that prejudice within the Celtic support.
Some might choose to accept the status quo. Others will voice their opposition to the the toxicity of the best wee country in the world.
That isn’t going to change.
Many within the support choose to voice their opposition to what they see as bigotry and prejudice.
This isn’t going to change and if it upsets the sensibilities of some. Don’t go, join a bowling club and remain at the back of the bus.
I am in the opposite camp re those who you say bring their political views into Celtic park, they don’t in any way seem to be political imo, they are anti fascist, anti racist, anti war, anti sectarian, pro unity, imo that is a very decent starting point, I would appreciate if you could at least give an example of them bringing politics into Celtic park.
I also see you ignore the reasons why the youth of today are like they are, you have offer no solution to any of the problems, you only want it to stop, fine I can accept that, but unless there are solutions.
As for the infrastructure that is in place, I imagine most of the footballing side of things have nothing to do with the board, unless you can tell me differently.
This super duper board have driven out a manager who has brought us untold success domestically, anyone who is happy in their work doesn’t just up sticks at the first opportunity unless there are underlying problems, our CEO has a history of alienating managers.
I said some might see it as appeasement then set out why it wasn’t.
That idea of appeasement is what prevents anything being done.
The Good Friday agreement wasn’t appeasement. It was recognition that things couldn’t go on as they were.
Nothing will ever change until the thinking that stops change happening will itself change.
I meant to add that I completely agree with your final paragraph – however let’s hope it doesn’t get worse. Forget the whataboutery, Celtic must put it’s own house in order – we have a smaller problem, however that is not the perception of those on the outside looking in.
As you know we discussed this earlier. I am astonished that Rodgers is surprised by that comparison to Judas. And as we discussed earlier this shows a man who is so self obsessed he doesn’t think about anyone but himself and also doesn’t believe he’s ever done a wrong thing in his life.
Auldheid thanks for the article and it gets to the heart of what I have been saying for a long time. We need to stop with the IRA songs. To other supporters they hear the words IRA and think we are terrorist loving b*****ds
I know this because I get challenged on it a lot. There’s no use trying to explain it, they don’t listen and really in this day and age where Northern Ireland has moved on I’m not sure I want to justify it anymore. It saddens me that we have become two cheeks of the same arse with the Huns as we all know we can sing for the full 90 minutes a litany of songs in support of our club with out offending anyone. But that is where we are now and from being in the away support at rugby park 2 weeks ago it’s going to be difficult to change. We are talking about a huge amount of people singing IRA songs and shouting orange b******d at Boyd. A lot of them are pissed but a lot of them are also on drugs and it takes a brave man to challenge someone coked out their nut. What I would question is how so many of the young team who clearly can’t behave (constant flares despite being told not to) alongside the moronic chanting manage to get tickets. I’ve been on the away ticket scheme for nigh on 20 years with my dad. In that time we have been offered tickets for rugby park which we always take and one set of tickets for firhill a couple of seasons ago which we also took. Other than that – nothing. So how come when the pitch invasion happened at rugby park (no blame there, just exuberance) every single person was born after I’d been on the away ticket scheme. Don’t say it’s just because it’s Rugby park and everyone gets tickets because this young team are at all the games. As I said, strange.
You didn’t address the singing about the IRA etc at Celtic park, from that I take it I was correct and it doesn’t happen there, the board have said that it’s stopped at Celtic park so I assume they are telling the truth, yes-no
TET, I can assure you IRA songs are sung at Celtic Park and have been for a number of years now. The whole ground does not join in but they are sung from the standing section.
What has driven out BR is the policies that Celtic follow that are themselves dictated by economic reality.
All managers want more than sensible Boards are prepared to spend.
Even if all the Celtic Board left, the constant is the economic reality that dictates policy and NL and any future manager will always have to live with it or drive themselves out if they cannot.
It’s the policies not the people.
The people aspect does come into play because not all people get on with each other but the underlying cause is economics not the personnel.
ATOB The jungle bhoys at the back of the Jock Stein stand usually give it the full repertoire at most games. Hh
Hmmm,you’ve been on the away ticket list longer than they’ve been on the planet?
Very strange indeed. Maybe they think that you might be a fifth columnist,a hun in disguise,given your postcode.
Only explanation I can think of!!!
Economic reality surely includes a £100m turnover when the manager is backed?
Had the manager had the backing of the board in signing at least one quality CH for,say,£5m in Jan or July last year,BR would happily have allowed Boyata to leave for £10m.
They didn’t do so,BR put his foot down. The club are then down by £5m and a CH in the summer,and it probably cost us another £40m in lost CL income as Boyata downed tools for the AEK game.
Economic reality isn’t safeguarding spend in case of a downturn in support;recent history shows that doing the former GUARANTEES the latter.
I don’t know that they are quite happy with it.
On the one hand there is the fear of any party relying on the Orange vote of losing it.
Since Orangism and Unionism are twins at birth then the SNP who want to disunite the UK are unlikely to be reliant on it.
Labour traditionally attract the Catholic vote which leaves the Tories as Orange vote dependent.
A problem the SNP have is the kind of Scotland that would emerge post independence and taking steps to remove the causes of bigotry in Scottish society would be in their best interest.
Imagine having a Scotland to govern where tribalism was not a political barrier to doing the right thing.
So happiness at the status quo would be poor judgement of any party wanting to or having to govern an independent Scotland.
There are ways to address the underlying problem if the will is there. It will take a generation for the results to manifest themselves but it is in the interest of most political parties to do so and when folk see something is in their self interest to act- they act.
The political dynamic in the UK and Scotland is in a state of flux so we can never say never.
That is a microcosm of politics in the UK in particular,and probably worldwide. That there is no appetite for long-term planning.
The here and now is what people are judged by,and that is why we get the politicians we deserve.
Agree 100% with your post.
There is an unmet need in some sections of our support for European success. Economically it is a pipe-dream, however it seems to generate a hatred of those who run the club.
Brendan left Scottish football because it does not fit the profile of where he sees himself – I can understand that, however he could have negotiated a better Celtic departure. If he had announced tomorrow after beating Hearts and Hibs, saying that Leicester wanted him immediately but he insisted on staying until after the Hibs game, things would have worked our better, I’m sure.
Point taken Gordon 64. There are other pockets but they often begin in the standing section.
Rumour Dembele on the bench….Could be a smart PR move by Neil,he might not get on but place will erupt when he’s warming up
Mikael Lustig, Kris Ajer, Dedryck Boyata, Kieran Tierney
Scott Brown (captain), Nir Bitton
James Forrest, Odsonne Edoaurd, Scotty Sinclair
Maybe one day the easily offended will start to look at their own thoughts and actions and question why they are so offended by groups of young supporters.
Why do you accept second class citizenship in Scotland?
Why do you not question the actions of the British state around the world?
Why do you roll up and buy tickets for a bent game?
Why do you not ask Mr Lawwell why he lost Brendan Rodgers?
In the context of the UK’s exit from Europe a pal in Dublin remarked the other night,
“Don’t let the door hit you on the arse on the way out “
The turnover is not the sole indicator. I read that something like 60% on wages to turnover is ideal.
I don’t know if the Celtic wage bill includes all wages at Celtic or just player wages so not sure how near to that indicator Celtic were and would need that information to decide the relevance of turnover to the argument..
When you say a quality CB do you mean one better than Boyata or the same level?
You expect Boyata would fetch £10m for a CB who played for his country in WC final stages which I think is realistic so £5m would only get you a CB of lesser quality than Boyata .
BR would quite rightly resist a sale to a player that had been the back bone of the defense going into the CL, but whose fault was it that Boyata downed tools at being kept? BR? The Board? Boyata.
Individual circumstances require individual solutions but always within the economic realities which govern Celtic”s policy.
Not surprised at Lustig for Toylan. Good when he goes forward but gets caught out in defence and Motherwell winger ( who was good) gave Toylan a roasting.
How effective in ending bigotry and prejudice has been voicing opposition to it in songs and chants that are viewed as bigotry and prejudice by those to whom they are aimed?
The key to every action humans do is to check our motives.
We fool ourselves into doing the wrong thing by telling ourselves it is the right thing.
How do we tell if we are doing the right thing?
By observing the results.
By our fruits shall we know us.
Ach well then, the board are telling lies when they say it doesn’t happen at Celtic park, who would have thought it 😉
Happy was probably the wrong word, I agree with what you say, problem is and you said it yourself that things will only be addressed if the will is there, as far as I can see no political party in scotland are willing to address anything that may or may not cost them votes and the orange-protestant vote is mighty so they won’t take the chance.
Ask the Celtic Manager what he thinks.
“You call it sectarianism here in Scotland, I call it racism. If a black man is abused, you are not just abusing the colour of his skin, you are abusing his culture, his heritage, his background.
“It’s the exact same when I get called a Fenian, a pauper, a beggar, a tarrier. These people with the sense of entitlement or superiority complex. And all I do is stand up for myself.
“I’ve been subjected to this for 18 years. I’m 47, I’m fed up of it. I’m the manager of Hibs now and I’m still getting it. Hanging people is something the Ku Klux Klan did in the 60s to black people, so maybe that’s the mentality of the people who write this stuff.
“There’s a problem. It’s a big problem. And you all turn your back on it, you all laugh about it, and brush it aside. It’s right there. I keep hearing all this ‘One Scotland’, we are open to everyone. At times it hasn’t been the case to me.
“I had a career in England unblemished by all this stuff. I had two years at Bolton – no abuse, no attacks, no suspensions. As soon as you come back to Scotland, it rears its ugly head.
“It’s there right in front of you every week.”
The problem is bigger than a few supporters. They are the effect not the cause.
The big difference in the Good Friday Agreement was that outside forces (the UK mainland politicians) could influence.The stomach and money was no longer there to allow the situation to continue.
None of those factors exist in Scotland where a Scottish minister openly admitted a law was there to punish one particular group so as to mitigate the behavior of the majority.
In a normal country it would have created outrage but the media and politicians maintained a dignified silence.
So what in your honest opinion will make the authorities and vast majority of the best wee countries thinking and attitude towards our minority change?
As i said before when we have done nothing that have been happy to make it up to continue the charade.
Perhaps the latest hate crime figures spurned them into being seen to tackle the problems?
Won’t hold my breadth as it was probably only due to them being aware that it would be very difficult to destroy another 10 years of the statistical evidence.
Possibly, but he was obviously promised things that weren’t delivered hence his hissy fit, as we have no idea what constraints he had to work under we can only speculate as to why, but he was seriously miffed and walked out at the first chance he got, that is not the actions of a happy man, as I said Pedro has a track record of alienating managers.
Our scouting network are primed for younger players with potential. A £5m younger player with potential would be at the upper end of our expectations,but he would have a four year deal-covered and more by the fee from Boyata.
It was poor planning from the board,there was clearly no way that Boyata was going to extend and they had been told often enough.
Anyway,like so much,that’s gone. And we need to deal with the now.
We are never going to agree on just about anything that is to do with the board and the support.
But trust me, unlike you, I will NEVER EVER call fellow Celtic supporters scum.
The songs etc are outward manifestation of the fundamental cause.
Singing them or not singing them won’t effect the cause.
So what is the motivation?
If it’s to provoke in them the same reaction provoked in you then provocation is the motive.
Even when they are?
They are not supporters – they only detract from Celtic – they are selfish, self-centred ***holes – just like those on the other side.
If for a split second I thought that the stopping of singing about stuff that offends thems would make the slightest bit of difference to them, I would advocate for their cessation, but we both know that they would only want more and more and more.
I know which Celtic supporters i would rather stand beside.
can I just jump in here bhoys, auldheid fantastic post and brilliant responses, I cant add anything to that, not that I could any way, you ghuys know how to put things across, im hopless ,anyway if jim the tim53 is about, jim I was only joking in my post last night to mags, hence the smileys, your the last person In the world id wish to offend, if I have jim sincere apologies.hh.
Anyone got a link for the game today?
Excellent well written article, however, I dont agree with any of it.
I’ve said it before and I’ll just summarize with some bullet points.
Let the people sing is the same as let the peepil sing.
Free speech is not to censor what you dont agree with but to allow the most abhorrent of speech.
Any legislation attempting to thwart such freedoms as we have seen historically will only encourage it.
Power comes from the barrel of a gun. Its what governments use.
When governments are slowly supplanted over the years by criminals guns are used more and more against the people.
The Irish are not a separate race. There is no 1690 gene.
Scottish bigotry is Sectarian.
Sectarianism is the realm of the uneducated bigot that does lead to racism.
Thats why the origins of the KKK, for example, are Scottish.
Celtic PLC politically are Tories.
If we could get rid of orange walks I’d get rid of catholic schools because there needs to be at least
the perception of fairness.
Anyway there are bigger problems on the way
What is your understanding of the cause and how might that be addressed?
If you can appreciate the cause of the disaffection the motivation for the singing which you find offensive might be reduced.
There isn’t a hope of reducing the feeling of disaffection among the young in a toxic society.
Sevco and the PLC know this. It’s their bread and butter.
mags, try he’s goal, vip box, or cricfree hh.
Will do. Thanks.!
Come on ye Bhoys in Neon Green.
I make that choice every time I renew my season ticket.