Unacceptable Behaviour-an alternative view.

When Mahe and I decided to go ahead with this site,we decided to give people the freedom to express themselves. Posts are rarely deleted,and are never held in moderation awaiting approval from Admin. We also decided to go further than this,to allow the members of the site an opportunity to post the Article of the Day. This has proven to be a success,and today’s guest author is My China fae Carolina,aka FOOL TIME WHISTLE.

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No strict liability for SPFL clubs is just a copout for those clubs.

Think about it. A collective shrugging of shoulders by businesses that open their doors & admit the public, at a price, and who especially encourage families to come in & enjoy the experience at their place of business.

At these “family friendly” places, thugs, idiots & morons let off smoke flares, throw coins, throw bottles, damage seats, throw seats at other fans, do their drugs in the toilets, chant disgusting stuff about terminally ill men & aggressively challenge anyone who attempts to talk them out of doing what they’re doing. These places are no longer fit places for families to attend but we’re told that there is no solution other than Big Brother saturation CCTV coverage in some dystopian future world. That’ll make the OBAF seem like a pleasant dream.

When we make excuses for doing nothing by saying that the innocent shouldn’t pay for the crimes of these criminals, then we are missing the point completely. The innocent are already paying for their crimes – they either attend & have to run the risk of missiles or smoke or violence or else they just stop going altogether. It seems that that particular excuse for not imposing strict liability should be changed to “it would hurt those that attend but tend to look the other way when these crimes are being committed because it’s all just banter anyway, & besides ye cannae clipe on fellow fans”.

Apart from the Hibs idiot recently, these offences are invariably committed by away fans & usually, but not exclusively, by fans our fans & Newco fans. We all know that away fans show up at other grounds as a critical mass, safe in the knowledge that plod’s strategy when confronted with this is traditionally just to get them into the ground as quickly as possible in the belief that they are better contained in the ground than left outside. No searches or simply cursory or random searches all fail to find the guys that have smoke bombs, bottles or drugs in these circumstances – every week.

Allegedly, the solution is considered too harsh & unthinkable, which really means that those saying this are not at all convinced of the true gravity of the situation OR grasp the danger but shy away from meaningful action for other reasons. Just as racist behaviour, if left unchecked or unchallenged will grow like a virus, so too the casual acceptance/justification of/for a level of violence & obscene chanting becomes a desensitizing agent on people. Songs sung that dehumanize people are part of that.

Alternatively, we are advised that the solution of strict liability is unworkable & could easily be circumvented by fans of another club sneaking in to chuck a bottle while sitting amongst fans of that club. Just to get Celtic in trouble.


Really? Is this meant to be a joke?


These grounds of which we speak are licensed by local authorities acting as agents of central government. A government that spent millions commissioning the Taylor report, then implemented those findings in full. Stadia can easily be rendered unusable for football if their licences are suspended or withdrawn indefinitely.


Clubs are responsible for the safety of everyone inside their grounds – legally & very specifically under this legislation. This is an absolute responsibility for which club’s who fail in it & offered the defence that it wasn’t really their problem would be treated with scorn. There is a growing sense amongst many observers, that clubs have realized that their licences will NEVER be suspended, because the politically correct Police Supt & the careerist Council manager on the Safety Team will do everything to prevent using that nuclear option. When you have a sanction that those to whom it will apply know you will not use, then it is no sanction at all: but, that’s only speculation.

In the past, Clubs complained long and vociferously at having to bear the immense cost of the policing at their matches. They believed that the police invariably recommended inflated numbers of police officers for football matches more on the basis of how many of their staff could get easy overtime money through it than on the actual policing need. So, clubs asked for and were given full responsibility for security & safety inside their grounds. The maxim of “be careful what you wish for” was never more apposite. Now it’s all too much for clubs & their spokes-people. They now give what amounts to an ineffectual shrug when faced with difficult decisions about safeguarding people inside their places of business.

Uefa have no problems enforcing strict liability as Celtic know to their cost. The effect of this is that there is much less idiocy at Uefa competition games than at SPFL games, even from serial idiots. Further, Uefa will impose penalties not just on clubs hosting matches but also on visiting clubs where there is clear evidence that their fans have not behaved properly or been adequately supervised. Perhaps, Celtic don’t like it & perhaps most competing clubs don’t – but they get on with it because they want to be in the competition & earn the cash.

All of the mealy mouthing from football folk in Scotland is a testament to some of what is wrong with the game. Stakeholders in the game are presenting actions & conclusions about a solution to a problem in their game. Action & solutions that actually have the benefit of absolving them of any real responsibility but somehow still managing to leave them with all the control of the game. Mmmm let me think about that.

What are the councils – who approve & review clubs’ Safety Certificates at regular Safety Team meetings – doing about this?
What sensible solutions are the Police coming up with at these meetings?
(Mind you after the debacle of the police advised fan access & egress changes at the first O** F*** game at Celtic Park of this season, maybe they should offer silence as their best solution.)


What real power to Stadium Managers/Clubs’ Heads of Security wield in these forums?


Are club employees been advised to focus profit more than the safety of patrons?


Do CEOs & owners prevail upon Stadium Safety officers so that the least costly options are always preferred solutions, regardless of safety concerns?
Are these Safety Team meetings anything other than a cosy get together for them all once a month?

Then, we’re told it is a societal problem & football is not to blame.
Well excuse me for being obtuse, but within the clubs’ stadia, entry to which they control strictly on condition of payment of an entry fee & a promise of appropriate behaviour by the paying patron, it is very much their problem & theirs alone. This level of criminality at large attendance outdoor events is unique to football grounds in Scotland. In addition, these same companies, who complain that it’s a societal problem & who take your money are ignoring the rather large elephant in the stadium. They are legally obliged & compelled to safeguard the wellbeing of all people inside the stadium – staff, police, players, coaches, paying guests etc. Ostensibly, their licence to stage events & take your money depends on their ability to demonstrate consistently they are able to do so. The clubs get the money & the clubs have the licence – not society.

Imagine if a nightclub or pub (think Bairds Bar) continued to be the centre of violence (allegedly) every night or at least too frequently when it was open for business. How sympathetic would the Magistrate & Police be when the licensee in his defence stated that he was actually not to blame at all – but rather it was really all the fault of society? When they all stopped laughing they’d take his licence away in a flash & recommend that he lie down in a dark room. The concept is identical, but somehow we have allowed ourselves to be persuaded that it isn’t.

Clubs are responsible – end of story. If away fans are the problem, then have no away fans at all. For a while at least. Neither Celtic fans nor Newco fans would like that. Neither too would the owners of the other clubs who regard a visit from these two clubs as their best business days of the season. Once again, those who know what the answer to this problem really is, reveal themselves to be compromised when a real decision has to be made. Oh and if there were no Hearts fans allowed into Celtic Park for example & one sneaked in & chucked a bottle, how long do you think his true colours would remain a secret & how long before he was being identified by outraged Celtic fans around him?

Add to that the fact that we already have “strict liability” for away fans in operation in football in Scotland. You don’t believe me? Think about it – Three times recently we were told that seats/toilets being damaged at away grounds by fans of the two Glasgow clubs. We were also advised in tabloid prose that the bill for repairing or replacing those seats or toilets would be met by the away fans’ clubs. The significance of this arrangement & it being repeatedly mentioned seemed to be lost on most people. This “arrangement” is nothing more than a protocol of “strict liability” that the footballing authorities & clubs have signed up to because it suits them all.

It’s the Morcambe & Wise or Monty Python version of strict liability though: instead of identifying the criminals involved, or instead of banning the away fans from those clubs who cause this damage every time they are at that ground, so that the criminality might stop – the clubs hush it all up & say nothing. It only becomes topical when Steve Clarke tells everyone that the “sectarianism is a thing of the past” emperor in Scotland is actually very naked. It’s a nod and a wink between the clubs, the footballing authorities and the Police, just to square it all up internally.

The reality of this protocol of “Strict Liability” is that Away Day fans are being given a very clear message. In effect they are being told “You are allowed to smash up seats at away grounds & we won’t do anything to stop you.” Not surprisingly, when you tell people who destroy seats at football grounds that they will get away with it, it’s a fairly logical for them to assume that the other things they do will treated in an identical manner. Thus for them, throwing the seats must be permissible too, otherwise why would stewards & police allow them free rein to damage them in the first place. I’m certain that if you asked the clubs why they have this arrangement & what exactly is the clubs’ logic behind it – you’ll be met with a shuffling of feet & a mumbling of unconvincing platitudes.

So let’s hear no more of “Strict Liability” won’t work. It certainly won’t work if there is no will for it to work. It works with all Uefa tournament games & it works with the scourge of damaged seats that you & I and our clubs ultimately pay for: another message that those who damage the seats receive loud & clear – “You cost the rest of the us fans money when the club has to pay for the damage you do, but we won’t do anything to stop you.”

In the past gormless legislation criminalized thousands of people and made no appreciable impression on the behaviour of the determined troublemakers at football grounds. But, that legislation was more preferable to those in power than actually discussing ways to implement an effective solution to a very real problem.

The solution is very simple but there is no will to implement it for spurious reasons of liberty, entitlement & the good of the game. Whose liberty & what is the good of the game to which they refer?

Until we have all reached the end of our tolerance for this criminality it will continue to blight our game as will the re-cycling of blame & responsibility amongst those who should be taking the lead in ensuring that the only talking point inside football grounds is the football itself.

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Our grateful thanks,FOOL TIME WHISTLE,for the time and effort put into the above. A cogent argument,indeed.

It can be your turn to put your thoughts across,simply by mailing Mahe on

sentinelcelts@gmail.com

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BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS
March 8, 2019 7:16 am

FOOLTIMEWHISTLE

I touched on this subject on Monday. The answer is for the police to do their jobs.

ZERO tolerance,same as they would on the streets.

So they can’t arrest everybody,whether it be 5,000 away supporters singing BOTOB,or 50,000 home fans extolling the virtues of being up to their knees in Fenian blood,so we are told. Well,actually,no-one is asking them to,nor expecting them to.

Get in and arrest a fair old few,make sure there are enough reinforcements to show you mean business. Do it again and again until the message gets across. I’ve yet to hear the defence of-But yer Honour,it wisnae jooost me daein’ it!-accepted in a court of law.

Regards BOTOB,you can bet your bottom dollar this will be proscribed under Strict Liability. And there’s another reason against it. BOTOB is a song of remembrance and celebration of deeds done. It is a political song,there is no hatred in it,nor sectarianism.

Celtic are quite possibly unique in having our roots in two countries,one of which was occupied by the other for centuries. Yet dare we sing in celebration and remembrance of a successful struggle for independence,we face arrest?

Why? Because some supremacist bigots don’t like it,and don’t want to be educated?

What next,banning ex-pat Americans from having Fourth of July celebrations to remember when their forefathers fought and defeated The Crown?

All the while,others can sing about a foreign usurper stealing that crown from its rightful owner around a third of a millennium ago.

These are just a smattering of the reasons why SL is problematic,and not just for us. If it is imposed by The Scottish Government,FIFA may view it as political interference,and they take a bloody dim view of that!

big packy
March 8, 2019 8:02 am

FOOL TIME WHISTLE, well written and thought provoking article cap doffed.hh.

BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS
March 8, 2019 8:10 am

Barry Ferguson also throws in his tuppenceworth,and it’s well worth a read. I’ve posted the link rather than a c&p,I want you to “Spot the Difference” in the captions to the photographs included!

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/watched-scott-sinclair-incident-thought-14102439

BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS
March 8, 2019 8:16 am

BIGPACKY

Aye,it really is a well thought through piece. I disagree with him slightly,but only on the means,not the end.

I’m actually in favour of us ditching our more contentious songs-a stance I would scarcely have believed possible until recently-but there are plenty we can choose which aren’t contentious.

Though those basturts would complain about The Fields of Athenry even as they belted out the famine song!

Don’t give them the ammunition,play it smart and long. That’s how you win,it’s how we’ve ALWAYS won.

Btw,I’ll contact Jim today.

Awe Naw
March 8, 2019 8:33 am

ATOB,

from yesterdays thread

When Local councils GCC and government agencies HSE Health and safety executive start REDACTING Freedom of Information acts about something as harmless as does Ibrox have a safety certificate then you know that they are hiding something.

Why Phil has not followed up on it I presume is to protect his source or he has been warned off by his main source.

There is no Ifs and buts about it. Criminal negligence from everyone involved and after two Ibrox disasters they all should be charged and criminal proceedings brought against them

Awe Naw
March 8, 2019 8:57 am

FOOL TIME WHISTLE

Brilliant article.

Football is outwith the law. They do not and don´t want to operate within it.

Bottom line: You will always be at the mercy of criminals (out laws) if you follow football.

Solution: Stop giving them your money.

Addendum: Celtic FC are as guilty as the rest of them

Awe Naw
Reply to  Awe Naw
March 8, 2019 9:04 am

acts=requests

The Exiled Tim
March 8, 2019 9:04 am

FTW
Superb article, well thought out and superbly written.
I don’t agree with it all mind you, I will reply later, much work to do now.
HH

BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS
Reply to  Awe Naw
March 8, 2019 9:06 am

AWENAW

I’m more than curious at the redactions,but GCC clearly state that Ibrox has always had the appropriate certification,and even gave details of follow-up work.

However…

Strangely,nowhere does it mention that inspections took place,nor when. Nor does it say who conducted the inspection-position,not name,would be all that is required-or signed off the certificate.

They would smell a rat if anyone tried it now,but I think Phil missed a trick here.

He should FIRST have asked for information about Celtic Park. See whether that would have been redacted so heavily.

Awe Naw
Reply to  BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS
March 8, 2019 9:23 am

GCC are only telling them what HSE conveyed to them. It is up to the HSE to deliver the appropriate certification which they have but only under a cloak of secrecy.

The point being that GCC is not a government body. HSE is a government body.

Anyone (yes even tims) can get a job with GCC. I wonder what the background is of the high heid yins that work for HSE. I will go out on a limb here and suggest that they are masons to a man. The same background that we can obviously overtly detect from BBC Scotland, Police Scotland, Scottish judiciary especially those appointed by the Scottish government so we can also include the SNP on this list. The SFA and the SPFL (who Celtic PLC are hiding behind to keep Ibrox open)

The only thing that is happening here is that Sevco plc (previously MIH) are emotionally blackmailing the Scottish government to finance the necessary repairs with the full approval of the already mentioned bodies. In fact I would suggest that this has already been done.

Would this be considered a gift to football by UEFA or government interference. A gift naturally.

The question is what percentage of the 55% of the electorate that are brainwashed with regards compulsory catholic schooling approve that their tax money is being used to rebuild Ibrox. Less than 5% of that 55% then it is a no brainer. More than then it´s a worry.

Awe Naw
Reply to  Awe Naw
March 8, 2019 9:38 am

The other big question here is who warned Phil off from pursuing this matter further ?

Mike in toronto
March 8, 2019 10:41 am

A yellow card!? Gees.. if I had known I was going to get a card, I’d really have said something and at least made it worthwhile….

Is there an appeal process if someone wants to appeal a yellow card?

No… I’m not going to send money! Who do you think you are… the SFA?!

Don’t make me call Stevie G! He doesn’t need no stinking appeal process… he just does it anyway! He’ll sort you lot out!

?

BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS
Reply to  Mike in toronto
March 8, 2019 11:04 am

MIKEINTORONTO

Erm,actually,as a lawyer,we were hoping that you would be The Appeals Committee!

Fortunately,as you weren’t always a lawyer,I know your previous experience will enable you to find yourself guilty.

It’s a Catholic thing…

Impudent Strumpet
March 8, 2019 11:20 am

An ingrained part of the Scottish psyche is the inability to handle criticism. We can see it in every day life, we get a bit of criticism and our immediate reaction is “well, eff you then”. I’ll admit that I am just as guilty of this. When we were carry this thought over to the sectarianism debate, it is easy to see where the old false equivalency arguments come from – the Scottish public cannot accept that there may be problems with anti-Irish / anti-Catholic bigotry within the country. Whenever a light is shone on this the reaction is in the West of Scotland is “you’re just as bad”. This is a tacit acknowledgement of the problem but seeks to diminish blame. But at least there is an acknowledgement. In the rest of the Scotland the Teflon shoulders come out. “It’s just the West of Scotland’s problem”. Yonder awa. This reaction to criticism is different from the false equivalency but it enables the majority rule view of “you’re just as bad” in WoS by abdicating responsibility and avoiding introspection.

If the above were not true, I would fully back Strict Liability. As it is, Strict Liability in an environment where false equivalency is prevalent, I fear that it would spiral out of control as various factions argued that it wasn’t fair because such and such were doing something or other. The application would be arbitrary and opaque…and there is already enough of that in Scottish football.

Just my opinion by the way…

BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS
Reply to  Impudent Strumpet
March 8, 2019 11:37 am

IMPUDENTSTRUMPET

Excellent points. Especially the “well,eff you then!” and the potential for whataboutery.

This is why I suggested in Monday’s article that punishments handed down would eventually end up in court.

And frankly,I’ve not got a lot of faith in them to adjudicate fairly either.

How’s the move to Scotland going? Reason I ask is,my nephew and I are off for a jolly Paddy Saturday next week in Wimbledon Irish Centre. Aidan-TT-should be there,and I’ll drop a line to Rab-THM-and one or two others too.

We could make it a going away party!!!

Impudent Strumpet
Reply to  BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS
March 8, 2019 11:46 am

I’ll look into it and see if I get a pass from the boss. Making it there on time for KO might be a struggle as my current temporary accommodation (with the in-laws) is a bit out in the sticks but where there is a will there is a way 😉

p.s. It’s a Sunday match…

Mike in toronto
Reply to  BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS
March 8, 2019 12:22 pm

That made me chuckle. Cap doffed.?

Sol Kitts
Reply to  Mike in toronto
March 8, 2019 12:53 pm

You can only appeal on grounds of mistaken identity, so guess you’re bang to rights ?

Mike in toronto
Reply to  Impudent Strumpet
March 8, 2019 1:00 pm

There is some truth in what you say … unfortunately, one sees a similar thing from many Celtic fans when The question of Celtic’s inaction on cheating is raised.

To get to the truth, we have to reframe the whole discourse…. from ‘who is at fault?’ To ‘who benefits from the present situation?’ Once you sort that out, the rest falls into place.

Hint: ‘follow the money’.

Auldheid
March 8, 2019 1:30 pm

Although it only applies to clubs qualifying for UEFA competitions, over say 3 years the main clubs with biggest support and so biggest problem with supporter behaviour are subject to club licensing to UEFA FFP standards.
Art23 of UEFA FFP points to those standards in a separate set of regulations concerning Safety and Security.
Now if a UEFA licence became dependent on clubs demonstrating how they complied, which would require establishing a mechanism for measurement ( difficult but not impossible) that would give the clubs an incentive to act with the support of the majority of their fan base.

No government involvement just adapting UEFA regulations for the domestic situation.

Auldheid
March 8, 2019 1:37 pm

This article

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2823917-big-ajax-transfers-to-expect-this-summer-as-europes-golden-boys-face-reality.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true

relates to earlier discussions on Ajax.

A point made to me yesterday I had not considered is that unlike in Scotland, losing out on domestic titles and trophies as result of the fallow years is something that Ajax are prepared to do and able to do because supporters accept it.

Given our fallow years would enable our biggest rival to win titles and trophies could Celtic take the same approach without fear of huge supporter backlash?

fan-a-tic
Reply to  Auldheid
March 8, 2019 2:01 pm

AULDHEID
Ajax seem like a club comfortable in their own skin.
They seem to have an overall plan that reflects this.
It’s noticeable that in any recent articles i have read about Ajax that there is a lack of an emperor and they seem to operate in collective thought.
Forward planning is in evidence.

Celtic would need to change so many things to attempt to emulate.

Awe Naw
Reply to  Auldheid
March 8, 2019 2:21 pm

gave up reading at UEFA FFP standards and burst into hysterical laughter

Awe Naw
Reply to  Auldheid
March 8, 2019 2:23 pm

Absolutely. If they didn´t give a fuck about being diddled by them for twenty years “eighty” shouts someone in the background then why would they give a fuck now ?

fan-a-tic
Reply to  Awe Naw
March 8, 2019 2:25 pm

AWE NAW
Spot on!

mahe
March 8, 2019 2:33 pm

Fool Time Whistle,,
Many many thanks for allowing us to use your excellent work and may I officially welcome you to the mad house.
The topic is a dividing one somewhat , and we are fairly broadly aligned in our views you and I .
And then I totally see where Bobby is coming from sayin the cops should do their jobs .
I guess there is no apparent right or wrong ,,, a course will probably be chosen and we shall all see if it works or not , never mind the correct choice.

For what its worth heres my take.
I might well be the youngest on here but I have witnessed a few successful campaigns in my time and have vowed to try and understand why they worked .
One of those was the campaign against drink driving .
Most wont need me state it but as a lad the car parks in the bars where packed , infact overflowing at weekends ,, and it was just a simple way of life that it was normal to drink and drive.
Amazingly the gov got something right and began what was to become a generational campaign with a long term vision of the current generation being the last ones who drive to the bars.
This was well thought out and properly backed.
It was a multi prong approach such as ads showing you how easy and how cheap the bus was for example.
Another ad might show a fella at the bar , struggling with the choice and in one option there lies tragedy and in the other option there lies a great night out ,, subliminal messages.
The worse thing was the images though ,,, they intended to shock the populace into action and thus a top level decision was made to use actual crash footage in the ad’s so people could actually see what happens when they make that choice.
The scenes were horrific , truly shocking as they came with the details of when and where etc.
Anyway this campaign was successful. I think I can honestly say its more staff cars than punters in most car parks ,, or patrons seeking food.

Another campaign was the Northern Ireland team one which is a bit more relevant probably.
After Lennys harassment leading to leaving the team , again I believe there was a decision taken. A new neutral stadium was looked at , and everyone was in favour of a new place and starting fresh but surprise surprise they couldnt agree on one.
So Windsor park gets a refurb and a campaign starts to make it family / fenian friendly .
It was certainly not the safest place for one who wasnt of a certain tradition , and was happy to go with the songs , sectarian banter etc. Thus normal people ignored it.
We would be sitting having beers listening to crowds roar , wishing it was a decent experience and we could go .
The changes made included prominent Catholics like Michael O Neill saying its over come back etc .
The cops actually got serious .
To buy a ticket for the home fans section you must go in person with a local ID , they print the ticket with your name on it.
To get entry you must have matching Id and ticket , thus they can tell exactly who is in every seat supposedly .
Theres mega CCTV and all seats have big clear numbers on them easy to identify .
Theres a well publicized free phone number were all you have to do is send a text / video or make a quick call to that number of a yahoo acting up and the seat number and the local commander acts on it immediately.

There might be more but hopefully you get the drift ,, its a much much improved place .
I personally still have issues and wouldnt go due to the fact they still play GSTQ and you must stand up , but still I must admit theyve came a long way .

The reason I mention these is that I sense that a similar long term hearts and minds campaign is the way forward imo . It takes real backing and a will but I have ZERO doubt that a major dent could be made in peoples mindsets with the right focus and information presented correctly to them .
Unfortunately for us all at this time Brexit , Brendan , 10 , etc are taking peoples focus and have left government unable to focus to such projects .
CCTV and making tickets very hard to get might well help , but the will has to be there , and it must be even handed . I have seen posters wondering where do many of the travelling support that are derided get the tickets from as they cant get any ?
I personally dont understand how someone can light a flare and get away with it but if your 6 mates form a circle around you then theres one way ,, Im not there so cant judge ,, but where theres a will theres a way and some rocket will bring in a flare , bottle or whatever if they really want to and its not as if you can ban coins ,, so flying objects cannot be stopped entering ,, the thrower must chose not to throw !
Essentially it comes down to choice , hopefully an educated choice .
The images of the child at Pittodrie the other night who got the seat in the head and went to hospital ,, has anyone seen them ? If not why not as theres a potent weapon right there,, real true life images of the consequences.
Should be plastered everywhere imo , might wake a few up , or shame some so maybe next time they will think. Thats one small education .

The clubs that depend on travelling supporters are stuck between a rock and a hard place , and ideally the SFA or someone would help with lost funds due to their initiatives but explain its worth it .
The fuzz should pull and out of the blue non tolerance weekend and pick a game and nab every single person that does anything ,, whether its thousands or not as it could be planned for big numbers ,, and make it well publicized that the party is over ,, normal sport time.
Theres many many more but to summarize will and education allied with a balanced campaign has proven successful in the past at not eradicating but drastically changing the populations views on a subject.

Happy Forking Friday and Hail Hail from overcast California

mahe
Reply to  BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS
March 8, 2019 2:43 pm

Bobby, don’t arrest the 5k singing. Just send the fine / summons through their letter box with a link to the video evidence.
Few months of that would stop it I’m thinking.
Hail Hail

Fool Time Whistle
Reply to  BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS
March 8, 2019 3:21 pm

Bobby, the situation inside grounds has changed radically since we used to have hundreds of police inside grounds.
The Taylor Report & the Safety at Sports Grounds legislation changed things.
The issues that led to the Hillsborough disaster included no clear responsibility inside the ground. The club thought the Police were in charge, while the Police acted like they were in charge until things went wrong, at which point they punted things to the club.
Taylor changed all of that. Clubs are completely responsible for security AND safety inside grounds.
The police can have a presence inside the ground but that is often just a token presence.
In effect, clubs now pay stewards a fiver an hour instead of paying police 45 quid an hour.
The frontline for security in the stadium are club employees, rather like bouncers in a nightclub.
Police only get involved directly if their presence is asked for, or they themselves with their very, very limited numbers see something that merits their attention.
From this scenario you can see that it’s often in clubs’ interest to “handle” things themselves so that they don’t have negative issues raised at the Safety Team review meeting OR have the facts circualted by the Police afterwards.
Stewards are usually fans & to expect them (on a fiver an hour for a part time job) to enforce the rules & regs as a cop would do is unrealistic.

As for the FIFA disapproval of government interference, I consider this to be a convenience if it is ever used.
The FA in England has Westminster “interference” as part of their structure now. They get 35million quid from the govt and the price they opay for that is that they are expected to be diverse, inclusive, open & transparent. As far as I’m aware, the govt appoint to people to sit on the FA board & recently the UK govt has threatened to withdraw their funding if the FA don’t/didn’t change how they did things.

Further every single World Cup tournament has had government involvement, Russia, Qatar, etc.
Once agan Uefa enforce strict liability & although this is not a national government dictate, the principle is exactly the same. If the aim is to improve or ensure safety, then the UK government has a well established system of enforcing that – the Safety at Sports Grounds Act. Neither Uefa nor FIFA objected to that because they had no grounds on whcih to do so. Safety trumps sporting rules every day of the week. FIFA & Uefa both know that. The fact that some clubs in Scotland don’t want to be told what to do – is immaterial in the face of legislation designed to oblige them to do what they should have been doing all along.
But then this is Scotland.

Margaret McGill
March 8, 2019 3:42 pm

That just about sums it up. Good article.
Solution: Dont give them your money. It only encourages them to cheat and lie.and put your life at risk.
If the huns dont die and nothing changes regarding any of this Celtic V Rangers is going to be like Boca v River. Neolithic.
The problem with strict liability is that it is not strictly applied to who is liable.

Margaret McGill
Reply to  Auldheid
March 8, 2019 3:56 pm

Fallow Fallow we will fallow rangers….

Margaret McGill
Reply to  mahe
March 8, 2019 4:09 pm

“The fuzz should pull and out of the blue non tolerance weekend and pick a game and nab every single person that does anything ,, whether its thousands or not as it could be planned for big numbers ,, and make it well publicized that the party is over ,, normal sport time.”
Starting and ending on a one time effort with Celtic is my guess if that was ever “tried”.

Margaret McGill
March 8, 2019 4:33 pm
The Exiled Tim
March 8, 2019 4:53 pm

The problem with strict liability is that like everything else in scotland the powers that be would use it to punish us, not a hope in hell would they be fair and even handed, they haven’t been till now and legislation that would punish us even more would be manna from heaven for them, for that alone it’s a massive NO from me and should be also for any right minded thinking Celtic supporter imo.
Jeezo, they brought in a law to punish us cos they couldn’t handle the fact that the huns broke the law every week, we didn’t so they had to even things up FFS, and some want strict liability, the mind boggles to be fair.
As BobbyM said, if the police did their job the problems wouldn’t be half as bad, it may even eradicate them altogether in time.
Take the Celtic support, those who choose to throw things, to be fair is a very, very small number given the amount of people who attend away games, I accept it shouldn’t happen but like everything else in today’s society there will be idiots out there, smokies are relatively harmless but they are illegal so, I have not seen any of the flares that people keep going on about, they are dangerous.
Damaged seats, again should happen but again given the amount of away support the damage from our support is way less than those of other clubs away support proportionally, it’s no excuse but things really need to be brought into perspective here.
So at the end of the day what are the Celtic support actually guilty of……..
Letting a few smokies off
Throwing a “couple” of coins
Damaging a few seats
Hardly cause for legislation is it, an over reaction imo to the bias media deflecting blame to us for the establishment teams far far worse problems off the park and their problems on the park, we need to get real here and stop the appeasement.
I haven’t mentioned the songs, that is a totally different argument altogether and one that I think is never gonna be resolved come what may.
Appeasement has Never worked in the past.
Appeasement Doesn’t work in the present
Appeasement Won’t work in the future.

mahe
Reply to  Margaret McGill
March 8, 2019 5:42 pm

Mags,,if serious a government branch or organization would need to be formed to tackle. That body must be as diverse and as multi national as possible ,, and include the money men hopefully .
If there was more money in a proper league they would do it.
However fixing the fans while the fans themselves such as us are walking away and the game is imploding might seem good on paper , and sound good , but while we have such a crooked set up would it drastically improve the game ?
No. They must be starved of money I agree.
Even a decent percent would force their hand. Cannae see it though.
I’m afraid the masses are just happy to play along as its ritual and gets you out of the house plus something to yarn about.
Only a small percent ain’t buying into what the Plc and league have become,,a vehicle for money making off the back of exploiting historic sectarian/racist rivalries.
Hail Hail

The Exiled Tim
March 8, 2019 5:57 pm

Good stuff from Lenny today, well worth the watch.

BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS
Reply to  Impudent Strumpet
March 8, 2019 6:48 pm

IMPUDENTSTRUMPET

Yes,I know. I’ll be watching it in Swindon.

Saturday is only for social purposes.

Fool Time Whistle
Reply to  mahe
March 8, 2019 7:52 pm

Mahe, I agree with your contention that a co-ordinated campaign by those who should be leading on this issue – would be very likely to persuade most thinking people to support effective solutions.

I don’t know if a ban on away fans until football in Scotland has got its house together is what is needed, but I really believe that such a move – for a trial period – would concentrate the minds of the vast majority of people.

The stumbling block is that those who should lead any initiative that could remove this scourge are sitting on their hands or worse, they’re advocating nothing of any substance while bleating about it being society’s problem or this or that just wouldn’t work.

Clubs don’t want it because it’s inconvenient for them & very likely – in the short term – more expensive. Perhaps this is where the Scottish Govt (no laughing please) could step in and do what you suggest, namely, guarantee to clubs that the proven shortfall in income or increase in costs would be supported by a govt grant or some such.

I can’t be certain but I don’t believe clubs will publicly object to it on moral grounds.The thing is though, these very same clubs have elected NOT to adopt “strict liability”, but as always, the discussions they had/have about this were not made known to the paying public. Neither the SFA (to my knowledge) nor the clubs have given viable reasons for rejecting it, especially during talks about criminal damage, missile throwing etc..

The SFA get funds from different pots belonging to the Scottish Govt some of which is detailed here
https://www.gov.scot/publications/foi-17-01307/
This is peanuts compared to what the FA in England get, but better than nothing.
I laughed at the money given to the National Performance Steering Group – the princely sum of 687 quid – and we wonder why the international team are hopeless.

The successful campaigns that you mentioned were interesting & you obviously recognized how one was more relevant than the other. Drink driving was not a culturally divisive thing & had support across society.
The Windosr Park ticketing revisison is spot on & how that was implemented is very much within the “strict liability” parameters. If I iunderstand you correctly, punters accept complete strict liability for their behaviour as part of the arrangement to identify themselves as the only person who will use that ticket to sit in that specific seat.
This could reasonably be transferred to a Scottish set up for home ground fans. I know, I can hear the complaints already about how it would be too cumbersome or unworkable I accept that the cost & inconvenience would be significant- but rather like the scenario in N.Ireland, there has to be a point where those in charge decide that enough is enough. We clearly haven’t reached that point in Scotland yet which for me anyway, is shameful. If all of the clubs, football authorities, police, govt ministers supported the right scheme & decent fans were not being criminalized but actually rendered safer at grounds, their hearts & minds would likely follow.

Those that should be leading in Scotland are failing to do so. The SFA seem clueless about how to lead & both they & the Police have a reputation for being less than impartial which goes to the heart of any successful scheme. There has to be trust: two way trust & trust in fairness, impartiality & consistency – and I’ve just realized that this sounds like a comment about Scottish refereeing reforms.

Fool Time Whistle
Reply to  Margaret McGill
March 8, 2019 8:07 pm

Thanks.
Strict liability already applies to those that are not liable. The cost for clubs to pay for damaged seats comes from them, but indirectly from all of those who pay for tickets, buy merchandise & support their club by shelling out.
The clubs concerned have all agreed to this scheme because they think its better than sending contested invoices to clubs & wrangling about them & having negative front page headlines about criminal behaviour from their fans.
The full strict liability (for the conduct of misbehaviour at grounds) would be applied to the clubs themselves. Many of the smaller clubs would whinge that it would hurt them disproportionately, but that’s where a trial period of banning away fans comes in to play. I accept that such a ban would be applied to away fans who have done nothing wrong. The trouble is that resolving this issue cannot be accomplished without some sacrifices being made by all the stakeholders. As long as everyone wants to retain the status quo – that’s exactly what we’ll get – no change at all.

Gordon64
March 8, 2019 8:38 pm

More lunacy at Easter Road brings ‘Strict liability’ another step closer.

Fool Time Whistle
Reply to  The Exiled Tim
March 8, 2019 8:55 pm

TET, thanks for you earlier positive feedback.
Like you I would separate the issues. I’d put fans’ singing & choice of tunes to one side for now.
Personal views on the issue of “misbehaviour” is buried within that word itself. Years ago, it was hooligans or vandals or thugs or neds or casuals or teams or allocate your own pejorative term – for now I’ll stick with a limp “misbehaviour”.
But seriously for me, the issue is not as easily dismissed or minimized as you appear to believe. Traditions dictate that fans should be allowed to attend away matches & have the kind of good time to which they’ve become accustomed. Problem is that if their behaviour continues as it has ( and I accept that it is a minority) then more heavy handed & blunt action is in the pipeline & there’ll be an emotional clamour to “do something, anything, but do it now”. Cue a law not unlike OBAF. If the scale of the issue is not appreciated or is minimized by some, then you can guarantee that things will still happen. The repeal of the OBAF will be discussed by some as the chance that football had to show that it could sort itself out & failed. Personally, I think it’s far better to be in the tent & pissing out that outside in the rain AND getting pissed on. But there will be a tent & some follk will be sure to be in it.

I know there’ll be a lot of resistance from Celtic’s travelling support to any ban on away fans, but in the initial stages, I cannot see how it would even begin to work. Strict liablity is being denigrated, yet it does work, of that there is no argument. Problem is that this issue does take us back to the issue of Scotland’s peculiar attitude to enforcement. Any strict liability has to have an enforcement element & it is here I think where clubs lose their nerve. Hysterical tabloid headlines about points deductions end up becoming the focus of things, rather than the scale of the problem AND what the outcome will be if nothing is done or too little is done. Points deduction might, just might, have place in the scheme of things – I honestly don’t know. But what I do know is that “points deductions” are relatively rare, even for Uefa. To get to that stage, as we can see from the repeat FFP offending by the usual suspects, fines, warnings & transfer bans in various combinations are all well used – in a clear effort to avoid using the deductions of points or banning of teams from competitions. There are other sanctions that can be imposed to persuade clubs to get their own literal house, in order.

This article discusses points deductions & other sanction & includes a section on Sevco/Newco.
https://sports.vice.com/en_uk/article/kbd39w/looking-back-on-footballs-greatest-ever-points-deductions

As I mentioned in reply to Mahe earlier, to effect change folk have to give ground, but I have no real answer if some folk see no need for change at all.
HH

Fool Time Whistle
Reply to  The Exiled Tim
March 8, 2019 8:56 pm

Thanks for this link. Good stuff from a man who has slotted in so well.

The Exiled Tim
March 8, 2019 9:01 pm

If the huns were winning and they were at the top of the league, strict liability would never have been mentioned, that is a fact.
The clubs themselves will not vote for it, why would they, it would cost them money, the government will be very wary of getting involved again after their last failed legislation.
If the police did their job……

big packy
Reply to  The Exiled Tim
March 8, 2019 9:13 pm

look im not feckin interested in the hun scum, why you ghuys want to watch them baffles me, it runs in the family my dad hated them and my grandfather even more ,and I feckin hate them even more than them,hh.

The Exiled Tim
Reply to  Fool Time Whistle
March 8, 2019 9:13 pm

FTW
With mucho respect, what are the Celtic fans actually guilty of that people are clamoring for strict liability ?
Like I said, a few damaged seats, a few smokies and as far as I can recall two, that would be 2 incidents of coin throwing, had it been more, trust me the media would have told us all about it.
In the grand scheme of things, that is again with respect, feck all.
It’s up to the police to do their job, their is no need for legislation, there was no need for the act that was repealed as their is adequate laws already in place, again it’s down to the police not doing their jobs..
The Celtic support are really not the problem here.
As for banning away fans, see when you wake up and realise that you are dreaming 😉
HH

Fool Time Whistle
Reply to  Gordon64
March 8, 2019 9:24 pm

1-1 now…11 minutes left.

Fool Time Whistle
Reply to  mahe
March 8, 2019 9:27 pm

PS thanks for the welcome.

Fool Time Whistle
Reply to  The Exiled Tim
March 8, 2019 10:01 pm

Same respect back TET.
You ask the question and answer it yourself, but still…
Most recently, Celtic fans damaged seats at HIbs & Kilmarnock & threw coin(s) at Kris Boyd that actually hit him. They also set off pyrotechnic devices at Hibs. if you’ve been reading CQN & other places doing their drug hits in the toilets at CP. Aggressively responding to other Celtic fans who tell them that songs about terminally ill men (same disease as Jinky & John Cushley) are out of order (Valencia).

I can’t agree that Celtic fans have no case to answer. We’ll agree to differ I’m sure.

The police have pretty much full & free rein (almost) outside the ground but I repeat, the CLUBS are primarily responsible inside the ground. That is the law to which clubs & police have to signed up & for which clubs lobbied for years. Demanding that the police do their job while at the same time playing down anything Celtic fans do/have done does seem like you want it both ways. “We do nothing much wrong & anyway if we did the police should do their job.”

This debate/argument is raising issues that are almost identical to those in the decade before Hillsborough when fans were cramming into grounds and no one had the slightest clue how many there were or in what condition or disposition. The answer they came up with was to fence fans in & we all know how that ended up.

I understand that banning away fans is a huge stretch, but once you (me actually) propose Strict Liability I can’t see how it would work if we do nothing else about away fans. Asking clubs to be accountable for fans of away clubs when they have no other say in controlling seems ridiculous. All they can do is refuse them entry.
I repeat clubs already operate a strict liability scheme on damages done by their fans at away grounds. Sadly, all that does is empower the moronic element who damage seats, chuck coins & set off pyrotechnics.
If things are only tinkered with then I can guaranteee there’ll be a backlash, another pointless conference with all the wrong people in attendance focsuing on all the wrong issues & coming up with the wrong, ineffectual solutions.

Clubs take the profit (unless you’re Newco) and are legally responsible for safety inside their place of business & should be held accountable. This means they accept responsibility for their fans. Home or away.
Just watched Hibs take a point of Newco so this seems doubly appropriate…
Oh hang on the alarm clock just went off…. is this a dreammm……
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT5j9OQ7Sh0

The Exiled Tim
Reply to  Fool Time Whistle
March 8, 2019 10:41 pm

FTW
I thought the vid was going to be Dreamer by Supertramp 😉
Listen, I agree that things could be so much better, problem imo is that the youth of today are taking their daily life into football, again imo to try and stop this will be virtually impossible, the drugs are a product of successive governments sticking their heads in the sand saying there is no drug problem, all the while actively encouraging and allowing drugs to go to the market, wheans of money has been and is being made, this in turn causes the aggression, the “loutish” behavior, strict liability is not going to stop it, they don’t actually care about themselves, so why would you think they will care about a football club.
Again I will reiterate, what are the Celtic support actually guilty of that causes this scramble to punish the club, cos that is what you are doing, strict liability will cause harm to Celtic more than any other club, for what, smokies and damaged seats, and two thrown coins, you should really be careful for what you wish for mi amigo, really you should.
Why was there no clamor for this when the hun support were throwing batteries at our players, when their supporters were coming on to the pitch to attack our captain, when they were throwing golf balls at our players, when they put innocent supporters in the hospital, when they stab supporters, when they riot in the city, when they actually injure officials when throwing coins….FFS, I could go on and on and on and on and on, where was everyone when these things were happening, where the ef was everyone……
The media see this as a way to dock points from us, no more no less and so many are jumping on the bandwagon, again with respect, get the eff their wagon, they are pushing this agenda and people are falling for it.
We are no angels granted, but we are not the big bad devil that many are making us out to be.
The Celtic support are not the problem.
HH

The Exiled Tim
Reply to  The Exiled Tim
March 8, 2019 10:50 pm

I have demanded nothing, never have never will.