Two cheeks of the same arse,my arse!

Morning,all.

This article didn’t start out as one. It was meant to be a general point last Friday morning just after I’d finished work,and simply a comment. It grew legs when my mind bounced off at a tangent-tiredness is a hallucinogenic,I can tell you! So sit back and relax,cos for sure,I bliddy do!

*

After my usual hectic midweek,I had been reading back on the articles and posts. Some quality stuff,folks-I should take time off more often!

Cap doffed to you all as you kept up the level of informative and friendly debate.

A number of the posts have been about the sectarian abuse levelled in our direction-as well as the shock revelation about paedophilia being hushed up at Ibrox. Neither should be seen as a means of point scoring of course,but I hope that wider society will learn darn soon to view these and other problems within it as problems of society itself,and not of a narrow subsection.

On which point,I was wondering the other day about the religious make up-if there is such a thing anymore in these secular days-of our support,and on how it could be estimated. After all,going to a Catholic school is no reliable guide to a person’s religion anymore. The reason I was wondering is that we all love our Rebs,we all know our history and our beginnings-but we all know fellow Celtic supporters who certainly don’t come from a traditional Celtic background. Should they love our Rebs? Should they HAVE to love them as part of the deal? (Plus I do a LOT of driving on Wednesday and Thursday and I need to keep my mind occupied!!!)

Anyway,I can think of half a dozen or more who post on here regularly and certainly don’t come from that traditional background just as an example!

The only method I could come up with was to take the population of Scotland and its recognised %age of Catholics,which is around 16%. Then the total number of attendees at football matches in Scotland against the total at Celtic Park. To make it slightly fairer,I decided that 95% of fans at the latter were supporting the home team but I ignored entirely the number of Celtic fans and other Catholics at other grounds.

For season 17-18,this gave a total 1.04m out of 4.48m. My 8 times table says 13/56 or 23.2% of fans at football grounds in Scotland were there to support Celtic at home. Ignoring those mentioned in the above paragraph,that suggests that around a third of our support aren’t Catholics.

My point? Well,maybe it’s time to give the Rebs a rest-especially when inside the ground. Yes,I know not all of them were Catholic anyway,United Irishmen,Protestant Men,etc. But that lot sing about being up to their knees in our blood when a third of us don’t meet even their warped criteria anyway! Our traditional songbook serves only to reinforce their bigotry and to give outsiders a chance to tar us as being every bit as bad. It’s time to leave it outside the ground,treasure it for the supporters buses and supporters clubs or parties with the lads.

Times have changed. We complain about the knuckle draggers on the other side of the city,that they are stuck in a time warp-and they’re welcome to it.

But it’s not for me.

******

Above article by BMCUWP. See how easy it is to write one-this just started off as a comment! You know you can do it,drop us a line with your hallucinogenic thoughts and we will happily put them on display as Article of the Day. Mail it to Mahe

sentinelcelts@gmail.com

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Re Mahe’s post about Philip Hammond,the full article is on this link.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/british-journalists-have-become-part-of-johnsons-fake-news-machine/

Published on a website because newspapers wouldn’t touch it because of it critical views. So much for the fourth pillar of democracy.

big packy

BOBBY, great article very thought provoking, yes I used to belt out all the reb tunes, soldiers song, sean south, the merry plough boy, but to be honest it was not directed at protestants in general, ffs my best mate was a protestant, no it was directed at the hun scum orange order lot, that infiltrate the rangers support, who chant their vile songbook at us. btw, sent you an article but just noticed sent it to the wrong place.hh.

GER57

Celtic is a club open to all, with a proud Irish/Catholic heritage which we are entitled to celebrate. Hardcore Provo songs are a relatively recent addition to this heritage, but they are definitely not inclusive; they generate ill will towards Celtic from many decent people. Are we saying to these folk, “Tough?” We can show our support for inclusion by dropping them from the Celtic Park songbook.

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BIGPACKY

I got it,mate.

I’ll mail you a reply in a minute-suffice to say,I don’t think Jock forgave Big Catt for that mistake against Dunfermline. A bit harsh,he was only a young lad.

Morning Timland
Sorry BobbyM, I disagree totally, give them an inch etc, they would ban the wearing of the Green if they could.
Appeasement has never worked in the past.
Appeasement does not work in the present.
Appeasement will not work in the future.
HH

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GER57

Grand to see you on here again,old son? Recovered from last month yet?

Aye,I think we do now have to drop the repertoire. We all love our traditions,but times have changed.

I personally had to drop all bar a few nearly forty years ago when I introduced my best mate-SOLKITTS from this site,I’ll be over to see him et famille on 2/11-to Celtic. He’s not from a traditional Celtic background by any means,but he’s certainly a Celtic fan now-and so are his wife and kids. It wasn’t right to be banging out those songs in his company then,so I stopped. And if my calculations are even in the ballpark,there’s a SLOKITTS within touching distance of most of us at Celtic Park.

Plus,as you say,it generates ill will. Unnecessarily.

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THEEXILEDTIM

This isn’t about appeasement,mate. Not a factor in my armoury. It’s about doing what is right.

We don’t need to define ourselves by them. Let them carry on in their 17th Century timewarp. We are a modern,all-inclusive club looking forward to this,the 21st,Century.

Sure,it will take time for people to change their opinions-many of us included. But a long march starts with but a simple step.

Still disagree, nothing that the support sing have hate-racism-sectarianism in it if the add on’s are discarded, nothing, there is no hate, so imo it’s appeasement.
HH

TTQtKK

I’m 100% with you on this Bobby, at 18 years of age, that’s nearly 30 years ago btw, some friends and I that went to the games agreed to sing only Celtic songs. We didn’t do this for anyone but ourselves; we felt there were better forums for dealing with politics.

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THEEXILEDTIM

I’ve always said that our songs are about remembrance and celebration of those who went before us,and that theirs,as you say,are about hate. I love singing those songs,and still do. I just don’t think that Glasgow 2019 is the time and the place for them anymore. Certainly not in public.

There are plenty of places we can rattle them out,and no problem. And yes it will be to no avail that we stop,the wider perception won’t change. That we are as bad as them. But it will in time. And if we don’t make a start,we will never get there.

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TTQtKK

Welcome aboard-you might be the first person ever whose first comment agrees with me!

It was about ten years prior to your decision that I made mine. And it had nothing to do with SOLKITTS being 6’4″ either! Just the right thing to do.

Fair play to you and your friends for that,btw. I know,it isn’t easy.

big packy

TTQtKK , welcome to the blog, now this is for everyone, what is a celtic song and what is a rebel song, if the soldiers song sean south and the merry ploughboy are rebel songs, I hold my hand up I sang them when I was 18, and that was 48 years ago.hh.

Troonbhoy

Bobby,sorry mate I’m with tet on this one
No more rebs
Grace
Fields of athenrye
Let the people sing
Celtic symphony
Our father’s,grandfather’s,great grandfather’s before us sang the rebs at Celtic park.
No appeasement from me
UTLR.

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TROONBHOY

Ah,there’s the rub. As BIGPACKY said,what is a rebel song? Where do we draw the line?

Whole new can of worms,that.

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THEEXILEDTIM

The Wearing of the Green was the first song that made me think. Like,what? Shooting women and children? A real eye opener when you’re about 8yo.

BIGPACKY

Those are about the only two songs that are in the right key for me,so very much my favourites too!

Troonbhoy

Bobby
Lisbon was brilliant
Thoroughly enjoyed my trip especially estadio nacional, a truly wonderful experience sitting in the stand looking over the pitch with the game on my phone,gave a rendition of HAIL HAIL but no rebs(lol)
Totally agree with you regarding Fatima which you alluded to,but very spiritual.

big packy

gotta dash, dug walking, catch u all later.hh.

Welcome TTQtKK
HH
……………………………………………………………………………………………………
Bobby
Celtic Park is not a public space.
Drop the add ons and there is no problem.
I heard a hun politician a few years back calling the Irish national anthem sectarian, this is what we are up against.
Appeasement has never worked in the past.
Appeasement does not work in the present.
Appeasement will not work in the future.
HH

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TROONBHOY

I didn’t quite walk out of Fatima with a tongue of flame over my head,but,wow. I take it you got a similar feeling. I certainly didn’t expect it,I’d really only gone there to kill time and to keep my Dad happy. Plus,ninety minutes on a bus from something I’d had drummed into me since I was a kid?

Had to be done. Still think about it. My Dad saying afterwards how those steps were nearly the end of him,and me saying that I didn’t remember any steps. Just weird.

And btw,the steps were there. I’ve got the photos to prove it…

Troonbhoy

Bobby
Aye, plenty of steps,good for your soul but not your soles
Beautiful uplifting experience.

Awe Naw

39 dead bodies found in the back of a lorry. Brexiters will be secretly delighted.

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AWENAW

I just read that article.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/23/driver-arrested-after-39-bodies-found-in-lorry-container-in-essex

If 39 people had been killed in a mass shooting in the US,we would rightly be in uproar. Sort your gun laws,etc.

39 people in the back of a lorry. Probably illegal immigrants. Dog bites man,move on.

A sad bad world.

Awe Naw

REST IN PEACE John Fleming dead at 62 as SFA referees chief passes away after long illness
Aidan Scott
23 Oct 2019, 10:18Updated: 23 Oct 2019, 10:19
THE SFA’s referees chief John Fleming has passed away at the age of 62.

Scottish football’s governing body confirmed the sad news in a statement earlier this morning.

Mr Fleming, who worked in his role for eight years, died after suffering with a long illness.

The SFA’s statement read: “It is with profound sadness that the Scottish FA confirms that head of referee operations, John Fleming, has passed away after a prolonged illness.

“John, who was aged 62, led the association’s referee operations with distinction for eight years.

“He was a respected member of the association’s senior management team and beloved by the refereeing community, among whom his loss will be felt most profoundly.

“Although his role came with public profile, John was a private man who drew strength from his continued commitment to refereeing even while in ill health.

“He joined the Scottish FA’s referee development department in 2009 and enjoyed a successful career as a match official, appointed to Category One status in 1994 and performing as a FIFA assistant referee from 1994 to 1997, culminating in him being part of Scotland’s officiating team at UEFA EURO 96.

“During his time at the Scottish FA, John oversaw the training and development of match officials at all levels and implemented a new structure to enhance referee recruitment and retention.

“His work was recognised across the world game: he was appointed as a referee observer for Uefa and joined illustrious names such as Pierluigi Collina and Massimo Busacca on the Technical Advisory Panel of the International Football Association Board – world football’s lawmakers.

“Indeed, he was integral to the hosting of IFAB’s 133rd AGM held in Scotland earlier this year before ill health.”

Paying tribute to Mr Fleming, SFA president Rod Petrie added: “John was a private man and many people will be shocked to learn of his passing after an illness borne with fortitude.

“His commitment was unstinting to the game, his refereeing colleagues and the association.

“He worked tirelessly in support of his match officials, whom he considered an extended family.

“He undertook his responsibilities as head of referee operations with passion and integrity, qualities that met with respect across the game: in boardrooms, in dressing rooms and, of course, in referees’ rooms.

“John was a dedicated family man and suffered the loss of his wife Ann with the love of his children Dawn and Graham, and of course his grandchildren Anna, Charlie and Rose, on whom he doted.

“Our thoughts are with his family.

“I know I speak on behalf of the board, John’s friends and colleagues within the Scottish FA, the referee community and clubs across the country in saying that we will miss a trusted colleague, a man of honour and principle, and a dear friend.”

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AWENAW

One should never speak ill of the dead. So I won’t.

TTQtKK

Thanks for the welcome guys. I’m sure we can find something to disagree about Bobby. ?
To pick up on what big packy asked, for us it was songs related to the team, the players or the game, not sure if that makes it any clearer.

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TTQtKK

We sure need more songs about the players,although I think we probably do better in that respect than certain other clubs.

Problem is,we finally figure out a song and they eff off!

I wonder what the odds are of a Catholic getting the job as Head of Refereeing?

About the same as a UK monarch being a Catholic.

M MCCREERY

Fantastic thoughtful piece of writing

Oglach

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I was always somewhat ambivalent toward the oul reb songs at paradise but!! The singing of Rebs at Celtic Park is as old as Celtic FC. True it is 2019 so lets go the whole hog and take down the Irish tricolour as well, why? Because what has that to do with Celtic FC? Unless of course it is just the less then 100% PC element of ‘Irishness’ which we wish to rid ourselves of? The Tricolour didn’t exist when Celtic were founded so why do we fly it? Lets replace it with a flag of a wee leprechaun. That should appease everyone and keep with the PC / PLC image of ‘Irishness’ and we can tug our forelock’s at the same time as the Irish diaspora is continually shafted by the authorities in ‘One Scotland -Many cultures’. Wasn’t that long ago our support were being arrested in dawns raids for having the temerity to sing an Irish Rebel song at a football match. Aye no need for them any more!

Perhaps the singing of Rebs songs by the young team is their way of identifying with their heritage in a bigoted wee country? Who knows

Up the Rebs CSC

Big Audio Dynamite

Have never sung a rebel tune in my life(wouldn’t know the words even) as I said yeasterday, Celtic was only ever about football for me.

GER57

I said earlier that we are rightly proud of our Irish/Catholic heritage and we rightly celebrate it in song. We are also a club open to all. If the hordes think that they win some kind of victory if we don’t join in their bigotfest, then I’m ok with that. There are plenty other fora where I can sing rebel songs and Provo songs till my heart’s content.

Big Audio Dynamite

Yeasterday? Wit a doughball ?

I see the Ibrox club are pleading for their fans to behave themselves at the Porto game. No sectarian singing or behaviour. A worthy thing to do as far as it goes. But I would be more convinced of their intentions if they stopped producing orange strips to appease the lowest of their fans.

Likewise their socks. I seem to remember one of their foreign managers – DA or PLG? – done away with red strip at the top of their socks when he realised it was used as a symbol for ‘up to their knees in Fenian blood’.

Do that again I suggest if they are serious that they don’t want that song sung.

TTQtKK

Haha that’s true Bobby. I think we have great songs and great fans. I’m not offended or put out by much of, If anything we sing. I also agree, as was mentioned by TET, I think, that appeasement doesn’t work. That said for me our club heritage is inclusive of all and I’d prefer that songs stuck to football to make that clear.
Right I’m away to take my eldest to see the Joker movie. Have great day fellow Celts.

Awe Naw

SFA appoint Neil McCann as John Fleming’s successor as new head of referee development
The Scottish FA have immediately announced the appointment of Neil McCann as the new head of referee development.
By Telegraph staff and agencies 2:33AM GMT 23 Oct 2011
McCann has carried out the role in an acting capacity since early October after his predecessor John Fleming was on extended sick leave.

Former Hearts player McCann was appointed to category one status in September and was fast tracked by the SFA having gained a vast array of experience in the Domestic and European arena with Rangers and Scotland as a player.

He said: “I am immensely proud and grateful to have been given this opportunity. To be honest I was slightly surprised when I was sounded out for the position but the executive helped to convince me that it was the right move for everyone and of course Scottish football

“There are a number of exciting initiatives on the horizon both for the Scottish FA and the referee development department and it is my intention to help facilitate positive changes to benefit the referee fraternity and the game in general.”

Scottish FA chief executive Ian Maxwell added: “Neil brings a wealth of experience in the development and education sides of the game.

“He also has a wide of experience of working in business and the media.

“His role will be pivotal to the Scottish FA strategic plan and his impact since taking the role in an acting capacity since September has been substantial.

“I have received a number of positive comments from the refereeing fraternity and also from his colleagues within the Scottish FA and I am convinced he will be an asset to the organisation.”

GER57

Oglach, for me it’s not about PC, it’s about inclusiveness. As BMCUWP said in his article, many of our fans are now from many different backgrounds. We are now so much more than our Irishness.

Oglach

GER57

Singing Irish songs of rebellion by a section of our support does not exclude anyone. Celtic FC has always been open to all – nothing has changed. We still draw our support from many groups. I would argue it is because we, the support not the PLC, are the champions of the oppressed and under privileged that we attract supporters of differing ethnic backgrounds. Singing Rebs has not nor will it diminish our appeal quite the contrary .

Awe Naw
I had to google that 😉
HH

Just for the record, I am neither Irish or Catholic.

Twists n turns

The vast majority of rebel songs ARE NOT anti Protestant. The vast majority of loyalist songs ARE anti Catholic.

The argument of sectarianism cannot be levelled at those singing them.

The problem has always been the audience despite the majority of them not being at the concert – except by means of the media. A Scottish audience. Who are primarily two things. Anti Irish and anti Catholic.

I acknowledge Bobby’s numbers, that a large majority in the Celtic numbers are not Catholic. I accept that as the truth. Have those making up the non Catholic numbers following Celtic now been persuaded that the songs ARE offensive? Anti Protestant? It sounds as though they have.

What we are hearing then is that the Celtic fans involved in the singing of non sectarian tunes should stop, because that’s as bad as others at other clubs who sing songs that ARE sectarian?

How does that argument work??

From a personal viewpoint, I don’t indulge in it myself, I prefer to go to rebel nights with like minded people who know what they’re buying a ticket for, however, I can find no reason to ask those who are singing the rebs at the matches to stop.

Add ons? Wrong. Most of them ARE offensive/ sectarian.

Outside of those? No reason, morally or legally exists to ask that it is stopped.

If you’re a non Catholic Celtic supporter, you shouldn’t feel offended listening to the tunes at the matches. They’re not offensive.

If any that are offensive are being sung, then it has to stop, because you will be causing offence. If not, anyone finding themselves being arrested will know why. They’ll have no defence in court.

For the majority of the tunes that are sung though, the opposite applies. You can’t be arrested with justification because you’ve done nothing wrong.

big packy

by the way we were never taught to hate protestants, and certainly not protestant clergymen .

Oglach

Twists n turns

BMCUWP calculations regarding the number of Catholics attending Celtic park on a match day could be wrong. IMO what should be include is the percentage of Catholics resident in the West of Scotland / Glasgow catchment area and therefore more likely to attend a football game in Glasgow

Population of Glasgow estimated @ +/- 599k ( including the surrounding area a population of 1.2 million but only Glasgow city figure used) of which an estimated 28.8% are Roman Catholics this equates to approx 172,463 people that could be inclined to support Celtic living within easy travelling distance of Paradise. In this instance it could be argued that individuals of the Catholic faith would seem to make up an overwhelmingly large percentage of the Celtic support. A very simplistic and perhaps very flawed way of looking at things I know and it matters not one jot. Defining yourself as an Irish Nationalist is not dependent on your being a Roman Catholic.

“The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts, cherishing all the children of the nation equally, and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien Government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past”

For the record I am not a practising Catholic and haven’t been since my early teens.

Lies and statistics CSC

A thing of beauty

I am with bmcuwp on this one. I understand others who feel we should be able to sing rebel songs because they are not sectarian but they are misunderstood by the vast majority of the population and give credence to the two cheek of the same arse nonsense. I have spoken about this before but will do so again as someone who sees weekly the changing demographics of our support. I was sat in front of a Muslim family at the game a few months back. The older son was explaining to the younger members of his family about the singing and atmosphere at Celtic Park. Unfortunately they found it hard to join in as for most of the game the only songs being sung were from the corner of the ground where the green brigade sit and it was mostly the rebs. They had no idea what was being sung and were never going to join in. What’s the chance of them coming back. Remote I would say.
It’s time to move on at the game. I’m with TTqKK. Celtic songs only. We’ve got hundreds and I credit the green brigade with some modern day classics. Sing them loud and proud and let’s really encourage supporters from different cultures in modern day Scotland to make celtic the club they choose.

Twists n turns

Oglach
Cheers – new slant on the numbers.

Actually the numbers should be irrelevant. It’s quite simple really:

If a rebel song isn’t offensive, there shouldn’t be a problem.

Didn’t UEFA already throw out the argument re TBOTOB? They said it wasn’t offensive.

Didn’t the Scottish police lose their attempt in a Scottish court when trying to prosecute an ‘ offender’ for singing it?

Most of the other songs are the same.

It’s the flawed desire to use whataboutery.

If they can’t can’t sing their bigoted sectarian stuff then we shouldn’t be able to sing non offensive stuff ?

Ones as bad as the other. No they are not.

In any court in the land it’ll get thrown out, and it shouldn’t need a silvery tongued lawyer to prove it.

Packy, Dixon of Dock Green on at 1 pm Radio 4 extra.

And it’s about football today.

Oglach

A thing of beauty 12:31 pm

Why don’t the anti-rebs brigade do something about it then? Why don’t they form their own wee ‘ultra’ group to add vibrancy and life to paradise as the GB do but without the Rebs? Outwith the GB Celtic park would be like a libarary most match days. Didn’t the board try and create thier own alternative to the GB a few seasons back in an attempt to quieten the Rebs? Think it was called the Celtic Choir – what ever happened to them?

ATOB
With respect, the fact that the people who get offended are as thick as shit that they don’t know the difference in what the Celtic support sing is not a reason to appease them, cos that’s all you will be doing.
Maybes if they went to Catholic schools it would help 😉
I am mystified that our own people want to stop the support from singing songs that are neither sectarian or racist, mystified.
HH

Pictures to take, laters.

Sol Kitts

BMCUWP
I have to agree with your article. Yes, when I first went to games with you, the songs were belted out in the Jungle and sometimes (when I could pick the words out clearly) they made me cringe a bit. But, and it’s a big but, I am old enough and wise enough to know that they were not a personal attack on me or mine. So no issues there. The majority of the songs sung then were not songs of hate, whereas ALL of the other lot’s were exactly that.
Nowadays when I hear our away supporters singing about joining the IRA etc, all I hear is the MSM being offered an excuse to use that songbook to create a false equivalence with the Ibrox Klan.
I would love to be in a world where our support stopped these songs, and the MSM castigated the other lot for still singing their songs of hate, but that’s never going to happen.
So what’s the answer? ATOB is right, we have enough quality Celtic songs to sing at the stadium, we don’t need the Rebs. Everyone knows the history of the club, and that of the majority of the people who support it.
Time to move on.
By the way, can’t believe I was BMCUWP’s epiphany ???

Twists n turns

ATOB
There are indeed lots of Celtic songs and it would be great to hear them being sung too.
The problem I have with this issue is the reasons being forward for stopping the songs. “ people are offended”

By what?

The lyrics are not offensive in the songs ( again, anything that IS offensive, should not be heard)

So what is it that’s offensive?

If someone can put forward a valid reason they should do so. I genuinely feel a lot are being swayed by the misinformed opinion that these songs are offensive.

The pressure on the huns to cut their vile sectarian songs out should continue, without the rebel songs being used as part of the argument that we are as bad as them and in any non bigoted, non sectarian, fair and just country in the world, it would do.

I can’t think of any reason why I’d want to take the Scottish media side of the argument that both are as bad as each other, and I find it equally difficult to understand exactly what is offending some of our own support.

They can say they don’t like it, but offended? Specifically by what?

For what it’s worth I can’t stand that fekkin constant drum beating and that loud hailer / megaphone thingy from the GB section. Drives me to distraction, but I’d find it hard to go campaigning to get it stopped just cos I don’t like it. ( though if anyone does wanna start a ‘ silence the drum ‘ movement, count me in?)

ATOB and the others with same viewpoint- I totally respect your right to express your viewpoint- and I don’t think I’ve disagreed with ATOB or Bobby on a single issue to date – but this time? I’m standing behind the Rebs. I don’t see why they should stop.

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