What do we want , what do we really really want ?

I am of the opinion that instead of asking how do we tackle the corruption and the problems that are ingrained in the Scottish game, we should be asking what do we want from the game ?
IMO we can’t tackle the problems. We can try to with things like Res 12, I will mention Res 12 later, problem is there is no desire from anyone within the game to effect change.

There have been numerous times when things were ripe for change, every single one was spurned for the status quo, supremacy and money. Be it the powers that be at the SFA ( they get drunk on wearing the blazer ) full of their self importance with no thought for anyone or anything other than themselves,,, the rules mean nothing to them as long as they can keep their perceived betters happy.
It’s a ludge thing, trust me on that.

Then when we scale down we get to the suits at the clubs, who are by and large in awe of those who wear the blazers, all the time they are dreaming that one day that could be them. These are dangerous people, they have power that can be wielded with virtual impunity and with total anonymity, when they club together these people hold sway with those who wear the blazers.

Then we get to those who are in our boardroom, what is their purpose ?
You would think that it would be to do right by the club and the game in general,
again all you have to do is look at their actions over Res 12 for your answer.
They are as bent as the rest of the suits within the Scottish game, our board only care about the money. Football is an annoying itch that they have to scratch every now and again.
Now there are many people who are in awe of them, for no other reason than they are in the boardroom. The cap doffers, these people are IMO as dangerous as those who are dreaming of wearing the blazer one day, they hold the support back from taking action. They are in control of the blogs, this blog apart, they control the narrative that gets fed to the support, they are well worth the watching.

Then we have the punter who doesn’t care, they just want to beat the huns, they are happy to have the huns around as long as we are beating them. It’s all they know.
Things may well change when they are beating us mind you.
Then we have the punters who know that we are getting cheated and they can be split into a few groups,, some just want to move on,, others care but care more about themselves and refuse to take any action,, others care but are torn as to what to do yet still fund the club in the delusion that if they don’t they will harm the club, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth.
As long as the PLC have full coffers they will carry on as if nothing untoward is happening.

I get that it’s a difficult decision for many. They are like an addict who needs their fix, in their case it’s Celtic. I and many others are lucky in this respect that we have managed to kick the habit and no longer fund the corrupt charade, more and more on a daily basis are joining us. It will come to the point that our board will take action, they took action when the crowds dwindled to circa 30K. The next time the crowds get to that levels I very much doubt that another Brendan Rodgers type signing will suffice .
I have the feeling that this time the support will awaken from their slumber, why?
Because I believe that the truth will out, I honestly do believe that .
The truth about the 6WA among other things will become mainstream, I may not be around to see it, but I do believe it’s gonna happen.
And I believe that the straw that is going to break the back of the corruption is Res 12, or is that wishful thinking on my part ?
Who really knows, but one thing I do know is that when we have supporters who have been supporting the club for thirty, forty, fifty, sixty plus years getting disillusioned things are ripe for changing.

So what is it that we want then ?
Do we want an end to the corruption and the bowling green blazer mentality ?
Do we want a level playing field ?
Do we want our referees to be fair, open, honest and accountable ?
Do we really want change, do we really care, or are we content like the suits who run the game, our club included to carry on as per usual ?
If this is what we want we won’t have to do anything,, we can carry on bitching about things on blogs, twitter and the like. All that will accomplish is bitterness, resentment and a smattering of hate.
That is no way to live, but if we want things to change, things to come into the twenty first century and out of the dark ages……..
There is only one answer to the problems that beset the game, it’s obvious……broken record time again…..
Don’t fund the corruption, starve them of your hard earned cash, you will get action soon enough.

The day that the powers that be ban orange walks from Scotland’s streets will be the day that Scotland begins to heal.

The above is by The Exiled Tim. We encourage you to pen type your thoughts on the club currently and seen them in to be published and discussed. Its vital to hear the hearts and minds of the support right now.
sentinelcelts@gmail.com

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mahe

TeT ,,
As usual we are indebted , many thanks and great writing .

I want a club to be proud of again. I want the fans to come together for common good , and to put some faith and trust in people better qualified than them who can attest that , off the field , we are in a very bad place. A place totally unbefitting our history and ethics. A place we were never meant to be.
I feel we cant do or say jack shit while our own house is a mess. We get it in order and then we look to the Sfa , because you fix them I reckon the ref’s follow.
I also reckon a properly policed league see’s the Ibrox men die or upgrade to an acceptable level.

I want good Celtic men at the helm of our club,,men who we can all sit back and know that they have our back and would never do anything but what they considered to be for the betterment of the club.
I want real proper non executive directors that are held to account at regular meetings, and who have zero previous business interests with the Plc , serving only a three year stint maximum.
I want Spfl wages in the boardroom ,, and a modern day wage structure for the playing staff.

I want money to stop being the God and the support recognised as the lifeblood.
They need huge parking and transport issues dealt with.
I would find some retail space within the stadium and put out a tender for reputable food and beverage vendors who have a track record of success when faced with the numbers expected.

Anyway ,, we can but try. I hope with all my heart and soul you are right about the Res12 ,, Im sure Im not alone in that hope. They sweep this under the carpet and get away with it then they just killed the clubs soul imo. Thousands will walk.
The fightin Irish blood needs awakened . This generations scrap is about to happen. We better be up for this. Theres too much riding on it.

Thanks again partner.
Hail Hail

Mario Bertolini

hi folks read SFTBs, posts over last week not had chance to fully takeon board along with discussions, will need to reread all. Excellent prose very enlighting. As I said refresh required. Clear out required both at governing bodies and boards.
I read fans without scarves take on Scottish football since 2011 and years just previous. It was and is all about the money for the boards TV deals, Sponsorship etc. without the big bad two there would be a pittance, and every greedy, self preening, boot on supporters neck. its for us that the made these deals to allow them back in. If only they had the balls to forego short time loss, for long time gain. A but, falkirk, hearts and others were dabbling with administration trying climb up the greasy pole.
The whole bunch of them do not give a poop as stated above. about time fans stood up and tell them where to shove this corrupt sport (if you can call it that). No wonder our RES12 guys are pissing into the wind. Glory is to be earned in a fair playing field, without that it is meaningless. What worth is 9, 10, more, or umpteen trophies. If all is corrupt.

Fairhill Bhoy

TET-good stuff,but you would be amazed how many supporters don’t know much regarding res12 and that’s just the ones around me at games.It will take a monumental movement to empty the stands this time.In my opinion obviously

m6bhoy

Fairhill Bhoy
TET-good stuff,but you would be amazed how many supporters don’t know much regarding res12 and that’s just the ones around me at games.It will take a monumental movement to empty the stands this time.In my opinion obviously
————————————————————————————————————————————————————————–
I talked to a fellow tim where I work in Birmingham. He is Glasgow born but his family moved south when he was a small boy and he also supports the Baggies. I sounded him about about Res 12 and his response was he’d heard something about it but not much Even though I then explained the background to it, I got the impression he remained more concerned about upcoming fixtures specially those against the new huns. I have other friends and family with much the same mindset and I see no immediate change as long as the focus is on TIAR and the football on the park is a decent standard which it is currently and that is exactly what the board are banking on.

That said, I suspect it would change fairly rapidly if we didn’t achieve TIAR or heaven forbid, a second NIAR. There would be no need for another Celts For Change movement as tens of thousands of current ST holders would make their own minds up and the huge banner makers would be working overtime to cover multiple rows of empty seats as the Stand of Shame and beyond makes a return. My fear is that this would lead to another Board inspired period of life in the slow lane with the new huns being the dominant force in the land with regular access to European money which they need to keep going.

Like I’ve said on so many occasions, this risk of this happening would be massively reduced if only the board had the balls to stand up for the club’s interests and tackle the ingrained cheating and corruption head-on. They could be immortal in the eye of the fans for generations to come. I know it’s all about short term gain for them but I just don’t understand why they choose this ahead of the more obvious longer term alternative.

fergusslayedtheblues

I for one would welcome the day there was no team playing out of ibrokes ,the seasons after the death of ragers 1872 were among the most enjoyable of my time watching games in the spfl .The masonic influence was negated as over the course of 38 games the MIB were powerless to affect the outcome of the league .

I do not miss ragers 1872 as I think they had a poisonous effect on our game ,The rivalry was not that of two football teams vying for honours but more of religious intolerance and bile .

In 2012 everyone involved in our game had the chance to dump that unhealthy baggage and attempt to repair decades of promotion of the hideous bigotry that blighted Scottish football ,they did not .

Instead they concocted the BIG LIE and the VICTIM MYTH , to keep the biggest perpetrators of the bile and bigotry funnelling through the turnstiles . Instead of looking to heal our game they have succeeded in poisoning it further .IMO they have empowered sevco 2012 with their corrupt dealings so much so that they dare not deal with the Res 12 issue for fear of sevco 2012 exposing all.
and they would do it too . If I am right then sevco 2012 has the lot of them over a barrel.

The thing with Res 12 is that we do not know what level of support we have that are willing to stand up and be counted ,yes we see supporters on the blogs commenting ,I believe the blogs are pretty much universal in their condemnation of what went on but we do not actually know how many of us there are . I think we need to find a way of assessing how many Celtic supporters are concerned
enough to do something about the corruption and possible collusion .

Maybe a universal effort from all celtic blogs by means of a voting thread on each blog or maybe a home game at Celtic park where on the 12th minute anyone supporting Res 12 could leave their seat an congregate in the food concourse ,I do not know how best to go about finding out just how much support we have for Res 12 but IMO we really need to find out ASAP as the money men have no intention of tackling the corruption

fergusslayedtheblues

m6bhoy
You hit the nail on the head regarding the TIAR and supporters happy enough just to be winning ,Hell look at that other mob ,they actually watched their club die whilst trying to keep winning titles and the very same peepul are happy to gamble on the death of the new club for the very same reason .
I remember the interview on SKY were dave king said .The ideal scenario is you win some title and your rivals win some but you win more than your rivals ,or something to that effect. would his thinking be a million miles from the thinking of those in our boardroom ,I,m not so sure ,even more so with their stance on Res 12

Thanks.
Only got a few mins, kinda busy this morning.
On Res 12, I know that the majority of the support don’t know about it, yet, but trust me they will in the near future.
………………………………
Mags
The Sierra de Castril mountains.
The Sierra Nevada’s are less than an hours drive away to the south west.
HH

Fairhill Bhoy

m6bhoy-Its harder to force change when you’re winning.just of the plane sitting in temple bar,2beers for €6?

testing

Very good article TET, not much to argue with there!

fan-a-tic

The Exiled Tim
Thank you for a well written article.
HH

Libero

TET – I doubt if any of our suits are in awe of anyone with an SFA suit, sash or similar. Nor do they aspire to SFA office. Truth is, anyone can surely see, CFC is commercially, financially and spiritually bigger than the little scumpond run by the local governing bodies. CFC execs (who the club does need to prosper and who do a braw commercial gig) prob see ‘them’ as a necessary evil. A view, I suspect, they have of the Govan outfit who fuel media and TV coverage thats so vital to brand and marketing efforts. As a fellow exile and fan of 50+ years, I’ll neither spoil my present joy or indulge my (righteous) resentment by withdrawing my channels of ‘support’ for the club. I have CelticTV which I feel is a fair financial exchange that lets me show I care and, at a distance, pay my way.
As for what I REALLY REALLY WANT (aside from a birl with Mel B) today, I think it’s more quality, NL-inspired performances, a run to the last 8 or better, fewer ‘projects’ or punts, a squad trimmed of makeweights, a just resolution to the Resolution – and a death of any duration for the still-bent tribute act. Too much to ask…? HH

Auldheid

TET
Clever article.

The truth about the 6WA among other things will become mainstream, I may not be around to see it, but I do believe it’s gonna happen.
And I believe that the straw that is going to break the back of the corruption is Res 12, or is that wishful thinking on my part ?
========
Apart from the wee typo on the 5 Way Agreement 🙂 I think you are right about the truth behind the 5 Way being crucial in changing how supporters -of all clubs
bar possibly one – will behave. Self respect will demand it.

The stalled Res12 2013 investigation will need to end before ST Renewal time at the latest but in the build up the case for delaying renewal needs to be persuasively made.

As regards wishful thinking and to go back to Rumsfeld, not if unknowns become known. 😉

big packy

TET, apologies been dug washing all day, so only just read your post, brilliant and straight to the point as usual, lets get rid of the 2 ludges out of Scottish football, and lets have a fresh start in a non sectarian sfa.?

Auldheid

Libero

As I said there has to be a persuasive case for taking some kind of financial action for example using the lead up to season renewal to persuade folk to delay, not stop just delay, renewing ST or in your case CTV Renewal that reaches out to supporters of all clubs.

So what might make you change your mind and support a measure that would cost you nothing anyway, but would send a signal that the corrupt foundations that were laid in 2012 and the corruption that then became necessary to hide the foundations had to be swept away?

What evidence of rule swerving, avoidance of answering questions, mis direction might persuade you you were being played?

I commend to you and anyone the Series by Fans Without Scarves on the stigma that poisons our game before you reply and for the story in raw there is

https://www.res12.uk

At core are we, especially supporters of a club built on Christianiity prepared to support an industry where the foundation is hate and dishonesty?

If we recognise that is the basis, do we not individually have a responsibility to change it?

To whom much is given, much is expected.

Auldheid

Libor.

It is in the spiritual dept the custodians are either lacking or losing the fight against the world.

Auldheid

Fanswithoutscarves has completed his Stigma articles and latest can be reached from https://twitter.com/FansScarves/status/1197439192365711360?s=19 but it’s well worth while starting at Part 1.

Libero
I agree that our suits won’t be in awe of those at the sfa, why, cos that’s not what I said 😉
HH
…………………………………………………………
Auldheid
So you reckon the 6WA was a typo then 😉
HH

Auldheid

TET

Technically yes.?

Mike in Toronto

Libero

I’m confused. you seem to be okay with the job our Board is doing “commercially, financially and spiritually”, and seem okay with the present situation, yet you yearn for “a just resolution to the Resolution – and a death of any duration for the still-bent tribute act.” Not sure how you square that circle.

But the part that really confused me was where you admit to having a fetish for small Jewish film producer from Brooklyn. Not that there’s anything wrong with that … and, personally, I quite enjoyed Young Frankenstein….just not sure how that adds to your argument.

🙂

Mike in Toronto

On a more serious note, and to respond to the point that Fairhill and others have raised (that many fans dont know or really understand the Res 12 issues) ….the Club should have been the ones keeping the fans/shareholders apprised of what was going on.

If Celtic had taken the lead on this issue (the way they promised Auldie that they would – if you get the bullets..) then I think many fans would have rallied around the cause.

That the Club did not do so, but appears to have mislead Auldie, is to the Club’s eternal shame. And makes one question why they have done so … which only supports my belief that the Club knew a lot more about the 5WA, etc., than many wanted to believe.

mahe

Morning all,

I guess we are entering the final phase of this chapter of Scottish football , with a minority wishing one direction and the majority another.
Maybe they dont wish it but habit, love and that bit of excitement calls them back time and time again.

I just wish they all knew what was on the line here.
This goes south I will be discussing the club, team, domestic football no further ever again .
Ill write my memoirs and give it all to charity , and try to set up some type of club1872 thing for our fans so that one day they may actually have a say.
The GAA will be ten times better for my conscience and stress levels plus and I will gladly actually sit the wee one down and say lets watch the game.
From next season very much looks like my team is Antroim. Go on the saffrons.

Hail Hail

big packy

MIKE, did the club know all about it, you bet they did, its the bigot pound they are after, and woe and betide anybody who stops them,,gone are the days when celtic players used to travel to parkhead with the supporters on trams and buses, ill repeat that yes on trams and buses, when the board were not tories and followed brother walfrids ethos. mike in all honesty im awaiting the agm and if it turns out the way they say, I will have a big decision to make about the club I have supported for 50 plus years.hh.

I think Libero was talking about Mel B from the Spice Girls. Not Mel Brooks. 🙂

Mike in Toronto

JtT

I know. I was just having a bit of fun.

🙂

Thank God Mike, I thought you had lost it :0

Mike in Toronto

JtT

In fairness to Mr. Brooks, he was married to the actress Ann Bancroft for 40 years, so, obviously she found him attractive …so, even if Libero was referring to him, instead of the Spice Girl, there would be precedent for someone finding him attractive (had to get the legal bit in there …)

🙂

Margaret McGill

What do we want?

PROCRASTINATION!

When do we want it?

LATER…probably

big packy

MAGS, you speak straight from the heart, and correct me if im wrong a Lanarkshire tim like myself .hh.

BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS

THEEXILEDTIM

Brilliant stuff,mate. Knowing you,I expect you held a lot back! IMO,the board are playing a dangerous game by taking us so much for granted. As I’ve said before,I admire their financial results,but not how they are achieved. And the lack of transparency from them is a disgrace.

As for 6WA,I wish I’d said that!

BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS

MIKEINTORONTO

Mel,also pulled Pamela Stephenson when she was in her prime. Admittedly it was in a movie,but still anaw…

Mike in Toronto

BMCUWP

can’t imagine the Big Yin would have been too pleased about that ….

To be fair, I Don’t think I would be too happy watching my wife kiss another bloke , either, even if it was in a movie ….

Which is the only reason I have not married Natalie Portman by now….

?

BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS

MIKEINTORONTO

Natalie Portman has great taste in music. For it was she who uttered the famous line-“The Shins will save your life”

Mike in Toronto

BMCUWP

You ll need to explain that one ….

Mike in Toronto

Garden state? I don’t remember it that well

big packy

MAGS, was waiting for you to say yes, but never mind still luv ya to bits, was going to point you to my post at 5-42, but seems nobody gives a fuck, excuse the language, such a shame 50 plus years gone down the plughole, for what, mags please tell me I used to get ignored on celtic quick news, now I get ignored on sentinel celts,looks like my time is up.?

BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS

MIKEINTORONTO

Garden State,indeed. Best part of the film,as nearly everyone else said-Who?

BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS

BIGPACKY

Chill,pal. You know that not every post gets a reply. Just the luck of the draw. Plus,it’s fairly quiet here just now. About to get slightly more so,as I head for my cot.

Margaret McGill

Big Packy
The Craigneuk-Whitburn Eastern Scottish number 27 axis of evil.

Margaret McGill

A Jewish man sends his son to Israel to live there for a while. Eventually he returns home and he is now a Christian. The man finds this to be odd and mentions it to his friend.

The friend listens, thinks for a moment and says, “That’s odd. I sent my son to Israel as a Jew and he returned as a Christian.” So the two of them went to see the Rabbi.

They told the Rabbi the story of how they had both sent their sons to Israel as Jews, and how both sons had returned as Christians. The Rabbi listened, thought for a minute and then said “That’s odd. I also sent my son to Israel as a Jew and he returned as a Christian.”

So the three of them decide to go to Israel to find out what’s going on over there. The arrive and go straight to the Western Wall to pray. They explain to God all about how they sent their sons to Israel as Jews and how the all returned as Christians.”

There is a long silence, and then God begins to speak saying, “That’s odd . . . “

Mario Bertolini

BP from earlier on last post from you 7:22. Well what do you do? You have supported/followed the team for past 50 yrs that ain’t gonna go away. We can only up all the supporters of our club and remain clubs in scotland realise that we can have an open and honest game. where all teams can increase revenue. Grass root rebuild. get rid of those overseeing our game. lots of posters understand what’s needed. It ain’t just about Celtic, it is all encompassing. Speak the word is what’s needed. break down perceived barriers. We all need to change and drag this sport into the 21st century. Start afresh

Fairhill Bhoy

The attention seeking knows no bounds it seems ?
Aw well first day in Barca was brilliant,camp nou tomorrow ?

mahe

Thats right Fairhill’s in Barca,
Fairly get around hey ! How much a pint?

Big Packy,,if the game turns you off sure you can walk the dugs a lot more and it will be good to get out and get fresh air. In saying that I wouldnt be surprised if the fresh air is bad for you nowadays ffs.
In fairness its actually hard to find a sport that hasnt had a drama at some stage. The rugby recently,,in the Gaa the Dubs got tons of cash to develop well from grass roots and look like dominating for a while,,the NFL aint running smooth,,boxing has mega issues,,etc etc
Standing down the park with fifty men in the rain watchin the amateurs is probably the last chance to see a bit of unfixed pure sport these days.
Sometimes I wonder where this world went wrong,,,
During the war,,,, 😉
Hope youre well hey. Hi to Joan the Scouser.

Hail Hail

Fairhill Bhoy

Mahe-hi mate,temple bar was the cheapest average is about €4 ,so not bad at all?

Libero

After a decent nights sleep, just picking up on some responses…
Auldheid – your points about ‘being played’ yet playing on, I’m well-aware we’re being played (and the fans without scarves series was xclnt) but choose the latter until I sense it would make an iota of difference. Onfield; a great time to be watching the Hoops!
But to make me not renew…? How about this – a groundswell campaign w a firm deadline date – I’d consider not paying if there was a definitive date for action which I thought might have some real leverage and support from many of our fans and those of other clubs. I sure do agree that the founding Christian values are being abused or light-touched by several of our custodians. But gimme a deadline where my action could have some real impact.
MIT; such mischievous mis-represention of my position (and predilections) sir (then again I hear you’re an ambulance chaser sir;) I appreciate both Mel Bs but for different reasons AND would only birl with one of them (yet what a dinner guest Brooks woulda been eh!). I didnt say the board was good spiritually; I reckon we the fans give CFC its huge spiritual strength, but I do still insist that our Execs broadly manage the money side pretty well. As for my mental duality (wishing for Res12 resolution and final death on the Soo’side YET enjoying our current dominance) I’ve reconciled that in myself. Just like I’m cool with perusing a broadly corrupt media for my ‘news’, going to chapel run by an institution globally pock-marked w predators, or enjoying a nice meal while millions starve the world over, I’m reconciled to change what I can and accept what I cant in this fantastic, Effed up world… supporting Celtic isn’t a pure dichotomy for me – living a decent life neither.
What I next REALLY WANT is a result v Livvy on the green green grass of home!

Mike in Toronto

Libero

A response worthy of the blog. Well said.

I should point out that I am not an ambulance chaser. Firstly, I don’t do personal injury work. Secondly, like many on here, I am getting up at n years, such that the ambulance is more likely to be chasing me, rather than the other way round.

On a more serious point, as you say, life is all about drawing lines. We all do it every day. I can accept having to deal with the bigots as the price we pay for following a team that plays in Scotland. What I cannot accept, and where I draw my line, is paying into a club, which sells itself as a representative of the Irish and Catholic communities in Scotland, but now seems to sell those same fans out at every opportunity, and seems to be in bed with those that hate my kind.

fan-a-tic

Auldheid

Libero

I didnt say not renew, I said delay renewal.

Away back in 2011 there was a resolution passed at an Open Meeting of Celtic supporters.

It asked for accountability and transparency at SFA but also changes in the video review panel process, a more immediate objective. It was passed to Celtic eventually after a wee bit of internal polticing between the CSA and CST and unlike this time Celtic were quite happy to support it and take it to the SFA.

There then was talk of a boycott but Gordon Smith resigned and the Review Panel process was changed.

Lesson1. You need to have a reason to make a threat.
Lesson 2. The threat has to be strong and credible enough to get a response which needs unity.
Lesson 3. It does not need to be carried out if the cause is a sound one, just be credible.
Lesson 4. The objective has to be one that most supporters would sign up to and if SFA reform and honest governance and self respect are not enough to get that support, then what does that say about us as a support who consider ourselves the best in the world?

The difference between now and then is the support as represented at the Open Meeting in St Mary’s Calton AND Celtic were at one, looking for change at the SFA.

Res12 2013 hoped for a repeat of 2011 by giving Celtic the Dougie Dougie moment/silver bullet that campaignrs were led to believe would enable change.

This time Celtic are opposing taking Res12 2013 (under Res12 2019) from SFA and passing to UEFA and are not working with the support after a period when they gave the impression they were.

Do you ever wonder why, and is SFA reform and honest governance not enough of an objective to delay renewal?

After all when folk renew it is on the basis that rules are applied fairly and what happened in the past to rob Celtic of titles ie financial doping and tax evasion , will not happen again because there are rules in place to stop a repeat? Can that assurance be given? Wouldn’t you want to hear it and believe it?

How much being played with before saying “Enough”?

No criticism of you or others whose ties are strong intended for I know the feeling of facing and making a choice.

The Overeas Season Ticket scheme of a few seasons back was my idea based on an ideal of Celtic, which they sadly havent lived up to and the wrench is not easy, but when you realise what real game is being played you either look to change it, which is what Res12 is trying to do, or stop supporting financially at the start then eventually emotionally too because paradise got lost.

Libero

Mike; re ambulance-chaser; used the term as broadly as some use ‘suits’ so apols there. Your point re paying; on what basis can I then say I’m a supporter, who deosn’t materially support? Support, in my mind or heart; isn’t that what huns who didnt step up to save their club did? It’s a dilemma for sure.
Auldheid; delay or stop, a deadline or timetable would help sharpen my decision; again on support; what qualifies me, any of us, to support? Mibby ‘not supporting’ – until things are perjink – is a form of support too. HH and all best.

Mahe