Sectarianism and Me

I was born in Govan, literally a stone’s throw from Ibrox stadium, into a Roman Catholic family. My Dad didn’t practice his faith but did usually have a magic fried breakfast on the table for us coming back from 12 o’clock mass on a Sunday. My Mum insisted we had to go and despite it being an on/off affair since my teens I still feel it is important to me and I’m trying hard to raise my 3 kids the way I was. Don’t ask me to explain what my faith means to me or what I get out of going to mass but it definitely gives me something, just a feeling that is hard to put into words.

My Dad was more of a horses man so never took me to see Celtic other than on one occasion in the mid 70s although he often took me and my brother to see Scotland at Hampden. Dalglish, McGrain, McQueen, Jordan, you know the teams and the quality of the old days when we used to be able to play a bit and qualify for World Cups.

I grew up in a house where there was no sectarianism, no bigotry, no racism. My Mum particularly was very open and accepting of everyone, and I’ve tried to be the same but I’m sorry to say I haven’t always been able to uphold her high standards.

I went to RC schools in Govan and contrary to popular opinion they didn’t teach bigotry but I suppose we did kind of learn it in the playground. I wouldn’t have dared take it into the house! I worked in a supermarket in Wishaw in the mid-90s and learned proper sectarianism from my first day when a colleague’s mother asked my surname. When she was told what it was, and it’s recognisably Irish, her reply was along the lines of ‘I thought so, the f……g Irish is shining out of him’. WOW! That was an eye opener. My colleague just laughed as he told me. I was there for less than 2 years and by the time I left I was matching peoples’ surnames to their religion or asking what school they’d gone to and it stuck with me for a while. I suppose I became a bigot in Wishaw. I’ve spent a long time re-educating myself but I have to admit I occasionally fall into the old trap of jumping to conclusions or tagging people before you actually know them. It’s not always about religion, it can be colour or sexuality, it’s not something I’m proud of but it’s something I continually try to re-educate about myself.

The announcement that James Dornan has given up his crusade against sectarianism is disheartening. That such a public figure, who refused to take sides on the matter and has been castigated by all because of it, has had to rethink his position is incredible in such enlightened times. Perhaps it’s a reflection of the swing towards right wing politics across the world. Perhaps it’s a reflection of the inability of both sides in Scotland to understand maybe there is middle ground that could allow us to move on from the narrow-mindedness that festers and prohibits us from really being able to show the rest of the UK that we are able to become a fully functioning, self fulfilling BEST LITTLE COUNTRY. Perhaps we need James Dornan and Nil By Mouth and Show Racism The Red Card to put REAL pressure on CENTRAL Government to come up with REAL solutions to this problem.

I am guilty of whataboutery. I do think The Rangers support is worse than the Celtic support at all this stuff. I do believe we can point to many, many instances where they have got it so wrong. They do sing their anti-Catholic songs, continually. Even when there are no Catholics about! You can hear it when you tune into to any of their games. We do sing our Rebs in support of the IRA, for a long time I’ve supported this as political in an ‘anti-Colonial’ way, and I believe it is, but perhaps we all need to take a step back.

It is now unacceptable to discriminate against virtually everything. I’m not yet at the point of agreeing with this although I’m constantly being educated by my 18, 16 and 14 year olds about what is and isn’t politically correct or acceptable. I’m learning but I’m definitely not there yet. I wish I was but I’m stuck somewhere between the 1690s and the 1990s! That’s a joke, btw! I am learning that offence is something that’s taken by the person who is offended, not by the person who is making the offending comment. This is complex. Actually, this is very complex and requires not only presence of mind to say the right thing at the right time in the right company…or just don’t say anything at all. This is very difficult when your starting point is stuck in the 1690s, or more recently in my case.

We have a socio-politically aware element in the Green Brigade. They are not Right Wing in their outlook but their anti-Establishment militantism follows the pattern of what is happening in world politics right now. They will not be told how to behave. They have been punished because of this. They refuse to bow to punishment. They react to situations with defiance. I think they have a place for good at the Club. By that I mean they are able to bring good to the Club. They can be invaluable to the team by their ability to create and sustain a positive atmosphere in what can sometimes be a dull. seated Celtic Park. But the GB are our starting point for change, they have the ability to drive change. We need them to concentrate on the football not the politics. This is difficult as sport and politics, as long as both have been around, have been intertwined. They cannot be separated despite the efforts of FIFA and UEFA, at this point I should have been able to add the SFA and the SPFL but unfortunately they are definitely stuck somewhere between the 1690s and the 1990s (sorry, that’s not a joke!)

For this country to move forward, for our Society to bring itself into the 21st Century, requires introspection from all parties. We know the Establishment is not interested in change, remember this is a predominantly Church of Scotland conservative (note the small ‘c’) country. For change to happen it must come from us, the Celtic support. We need to drive this, we need to show the rest of the country, indeed the UK, that what was previously accepted is no more.

I have said it before, we are the more tolerant support, we are the more politically aware, we have the moral upper hand. We need Celtic to back us, they need to support us. They can start at CP by banning the IRA references in our chants. We can ask them to ban the ‘Cheer up Walter Smith/Ally McCoist/Stevie G’ chants. We can make these unacceptable, it will take time but probably not as much time as you’d think if the message is delivered in the right way. Because we ARE inclusive. We always have been its just that sometimes we forget it.

Then there won’t be any whataboutery. Then it will be them, The Rangers support, singing their bile. Then we can point the finger and say ‘We told you it was them!’ And where will the Parliament hide then!

James Dornan might think he’s given up, but maybe he’s just started!

The above guest article is by Mc Caff. We are more than happy to publish contributions of any kind and the email is sentinelcelts@gmail.com

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fan-a-tic

McCaff
Admire your sentiment but disagree.
Tonights daily record headline shows that no matter what Celtic or the support do a broad brush will be used to tarnish us.
The media and establishment in Scotland have accentuated the Torbett links with Celtic whilst attempting to downplay the same vile behavior of actual Rangers football clubs employees.
No matter how our supporters act or behave that broad brush will be used to muddy the waters.
Also Nil by Mouths silence on many matters concerning one club renders them as part of the problem and not capable of contributing to the solution.
The problem lies with Scottish societies unwillingness to face it’s own prejudices.
Celtic and whatever form of the Rangers exist are merely a focal point and easy deflection from the real issue.
HH

Mahe

Many thanks for the article Mc Caff.
If banning non footie songs was the price of a clean game then I would pay it but then that’s easy for a non attendee to state.
Would the majority of the support?
Guess that depends on how convinced they are its real this time with the mentality and character of those involved plus punishment scale involved.
It must be recognised that a few rockets might quickly sing a couple lines thinking its their moment of infamy, in fact that’s probably likely.
Whether to consider that a breach needs discussed.
A clean up should be genuine and not based on whataboutery, so numerous figures should be involved to reassure their respective community.
The next few years will tell us all we know about this club of ours and whether or how much people will care about our future will be determined by the actions or lack of.
The game needs to know if the light blues can actually survive before even thinking of challenging them. Survive without a helping hand from anyone that is and be able to pass a proper FFP test plus have accounts that are signed off by a Nomad. You know, normal business procedures that seem to get trampled on over there.
I do like the sound of our fans and club leading a newer thinking nation but like across the water the issues of state loom large,, stay in the current union is the question for both.
Should the nation gain independence then Lord knows it could do with a unifying force but the timing would not be right with a country and folk finding their feet.Trust doesn’t come easy. Governing together impartially would break down barriers.
In settled-ish times only I think could the club and fans take the bull by the horn on sectarianism.
I hope we see those settled times soon.
Thanks again pal.
Hail Hail

big packy

great article mc caff, on the green brigade, I used to belt out all the reb songs 50 years ago when I was sixteen, was I right to do it don’t know, maybe, probably, but should we ban the green brigade from singing songs we sung, im sitting on the fence there, as regards Presbyterian bigoted Scotland, ive said this many times as has TET, get rid of the orange order get rid of sectarianism.hh.

Friesdorfer

Quality article and posts this morning. Thank you ghuys. Much food for thought. Have long believed that a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, a la South Africa, is possibly a way forward, both in Scotland and in Northern Ireland.
Off to the gym this morning for the first time this year, following on from the festive season and a wee sojourn in Gran Canaria, plus invigilating at the local high school for Prelims. No doubt there will be consequences!
HH

Twists n turns

BP
Ach you’re over reacting to the Orange Order. I believe there are only 2,300 marches a year in Scotland. I mean, over say a 3 month marching season that’s only about 200 a week on average. ?

SFTB

I would disagree with some of the sentiment here, even though I have always been in favour of reducing the Level of Rebs singing amongst our support

A period of reflection from James Dornan, chief attack dog for the SNP on the OBaF Act, is long overdue.

The anti-football, snobbish and illiberal sentiments that saw the ditch perfectly workable BOTP legislation and replace it with mince, started off as an exercise in trying to turn us all into good little Scotsmen, where all homeland or ancestry sentiment was ok except for Scots-wish or Scots-English, and it ended up with special police units filming young boys, illegally corralling them, invading their homes without permission and turning up to arrest them in public places like airports and workplaces, all for “crimes” that each of us committed in our youth.

They never considered reinforcing the educative initiatives begun by Jack McConnell (as it wouldn’t have a tartan stamp on it), they reached straight for the poorly thought and worded legislation and the bans, reflecting their own authoritarian tendencies and petty bigotries. They ignored the sage evidence of such as Tom Devine and promoted the testimony of Gordon Smith and Pat Nevin instead.

It was a disastrous period in Scottish football relations, for all clubs and not just Celtic and Sevco. Meanwhile, not a public word about our football industry’s administration in secret via the 5 way agreement or about a club trading on its own name after liquidation, emerged from the lips of any politician of any hue in Scotland.

Mr. Dornan was also very vocal in placing Celtic FC firmly in the culpability line for the historic child abuse at Celtic Boys Clubs but, to my knowledge, never commented on instances of child abuse by coaches associated with any other clubs.

I’d love to see a reduction in the singing of the Rebs while still being on the side that seeks a re-unified Ireland and support any expressions of support for that. I fear, too often, we use the Rebs to antagonise rather than to express identity. We send the ludicrous message around Scotland that “The IRA will set you free”, when neither the IRA nor Sinn Fein have any interest in the Project outlined.

The efforts of James Dornan and co with their knee jerk response to banning and criminalisation did not help this process; it worsened it. It also made life difficult for all young football fans who were just using swear words at opposition clubs and fans but ended up in repeat court cases and, in some cases, losing jobs and careers for youthful follies.

Mr. Dornan has been vowing vengeance for the repeal of OBaF Act and seeking the further nonsense of Strict Liability as his planned revenge.

As with VAR, we need to be more careful what we wish for.

Aff oot to work

Awe Naw

Fly wi teh craws you get shot wi thum. support this PLC you support the Old Firm. You are a bigot.

Crawford Allen … an Integral part of the Tonev racism action “the main catalyst” expect more of the same

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/court-lists/list-cause-rolls2/commercial-court Court 24 … I seemed to have missed this in today’s SMSM

Has Morelos turned up in bonny Scotland yet ?

Oglach

More Orange Order marches in Scotland per year than in Norn Iron and yet it is the Celtic support, ditto the Irish Catholic diaspora in Scotland, who should turn the other cheek? When the Scots establishment bans Orange parades, when MSPs aren’t shouted down in the Scots Parliament for raising the subject of anti Irish Racism in Scotland, when SNP MPs are censured and thrown out of the party for referring to Celtic supporters / the Irish diaspora as ‘Plastic Irish men’, then and only then should we consider relinquishing part of ‘our history’. Lest we forget Reb songs being sang at Celtic park is as old as Celtic FC.

Up the Rebs CSC

Libero

Nice one McCaff – you cover a lot of ground. There is good and bad in every pocket of humankind, and I guess we have our share of ferals. I’d always believed Celtic was a catholic (with a small c) club, in that our spirit was generously ecumenical and, in fact, multi-theist or atheist for that matter. Yet in my early 20s, I embarrassingly recall telling a Celtic supporting protestant acquaintance when he was decrying huns, that he was a hun too! His crestfallen look showed me I was totally, horribly wrong and had bigotedly conflated religion w character. He’s a passionate Celt even to this day as are his boys. Now I can’t abide generalised sectarianism, or acclaimed integrity without action. Yes as a club we should lead the rapprochement; but we can’t fix what’s not ours to fix; there’s another side to the problem and the game’s administrators must also enact and enforce ethical governance.

Oglach

Vakoun Issouf Bayo is for the offski according to some at Celtic. Loan or permanent yet to be decided. If true that’s another £2mill plus wages pished against the wall. Could this mean Griff is staying put?

m6bhoy

Like McCaff, I was also born within a stone throw of Ibrox. the Southern General maternity wing, to be precise and like him, went through the Roman Catholic education system. By and large, what I was taught was no different to what was being taught to my “protestant” friends in the non-denominational schools except of course for religious instruction. I haven’t a clue what was taught in “their” school but once a week, at least, one of the local priests would take over our class to teach us Roman Catholicism and prepare us for the sacraments. At the time, this all seemed normal to me as my wider family were all Roman Catholics to one degree or another and marriages, births and deaths almost always focused round one chapel or another. At one point, I even attended the cubs which was based on religion and my non-RC mates went to the Boys Brigade. Actually, I wish I had gone to the Woodcraft Folk but they weren’t around where I lived despite the substantial wooded areas in Castlemilk back then.

When I look back, I realise that I was going through a form of indoctrination, no different to the sort of thing we were told was happening to young children in other faith schools or “communist” Russia, for that matter. It obviously didn’t work in my case as I no more believe in a supernatural being than I do, fairies at the top of my garden.

When my two sons arrived, my wife and I agreed we would send them to the nearest school regardless of the its religious affiliation. As it turned out the local school where I live in the West Midlands didn’t have any religious steer though they did teach religious education rather than instruction. The school had a mix of many and no faiths which helped my sons gain a better understanding of other faiths around them and helped them be more tolerant to others, much more tolerant than I am, to be honest. We also decided that they would be free to chose their own religion, at whatever age they decided to do this. As it turned out, they chose the “none of the above” option.

To me, we should adopt the French attitude to state and church. Schools should be secular where children are allowed to mix with each other as they do outside on the streets in their communities. I’m not saying that children become bigots in RC or other faith schools, far from it, but to artificially separate them at such a formative age only helps to create the environment where those who have a vested interested in fostering sectarianism and bigotry can do so much more easily.

Clearly, there are many other factors at work that foster divisions in society but separating children at school age does not help, in my opinion. For the same reasons, I am also opposed to so-called independent schools.

JimmynotPaul

McCaff.
All the best bhoys and ghirls are born in Govan. ??
SFTB.
I agree.
Dornan is a snake, The Green Brigade had his measure from day one.

Libero

Am I the only one that actually played for a BB team on here? I enjoyed the fitba but couldnae go the quasi-military bizo and kept tripping up at the Our Father wording.

bada bing1

We need to be careful, we were a striker short before Paddy signed,we would be in the same boat if we let 1 out

bada bing1

Brazilian CB Bruno,wins case,and is released from his contract

ASWGL

A self ban on rebel songs, countered with thems stop chanting famine songs sounds nice, though ultimately a pipe dream.
How does that force them to stop financial doping.
How does that bring unbiased refereeing or an SFA to account, such as 5way agreements.
How does that create fair media coverage.
How does it stop them spitting on priests.
How does that force them to stop stabbing Celtic supporters.
How ….(fill in your own blanks)

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BADABING 1038

Ineteresting stuff-I’d forgotten about him! He probably stands a higher chance of getting a work permit here than in many of the big leagues,so hopefully he is still interested. Unfortunately,as a Brazilian he is guaranteed one in Portugal.

But in keeping with the subject of the article-is he a left-footer?

In this case,it’s not a euphemism,we don’t have a left-sided CB on our books.

ASWGL

A work permit could be a major stumbling block, as Bruno has no caps for Brazil (at either youth or senior level)

Auldheid

Libero

My dad’s proud boast was I played with the Tims (St Mungos) in the morning and Bluenoses (St James Calton ) in the afternoon. Always encouraged me to mix with protestant pals, as a result of which I gave up attending games v Rangers aged 15.Paradoxically he had no time for Rangers the institution. Its all in a chapter in a book called Bigotry, Football and Scotland under title “Sectarianism Sells Or Does it?”

It was published over 5 years ago and I would remove the “Or Does It?” Its actually wider than football its an industry involving the media etc which I think has contributed to Dornan giving up.

The fact the media who can influence voters are into it in such a big way deters politicians I think and I don’t see society changing quickly although individuals can have a metanoia moment.

It is really all about who you want to be and when I heard the songs of hate thrown at each other at Ibrox all those 58 years ago I decided I don’t want to be a hater. The behaviour on either side despairs me although I think Christian values as in love one another etc are more prevalent in Celtic supporters although it might be that which attracts us to each other.

The Gombeen Man

Mc Caff,

Thanks for taking the time to write the leader today and share in your own story, which resonates very clearly with mine.

Initially I was going to write a few of my own developing thoughts but on reading Fr Richard Rohr’s mail this morning think he sums it up…

Week Two

Action and Contemplation:
Part Two

Radical Solidarity
Wednesday, January 15, 2020

A contemplative lens is the only frame through which we can recognize and address the three sources of evil: the world, the flesh, and the devil. When we remain in egoic consciousness, evil (especially in its first hidden forms that look so much like goodness), will take over unchallenged. This is exactly what Brazilian archbishop Dom Hélder Câmara (1909–1999) said many years ago when he talked about the “spiral of violence”: institutional violence provokes a violent response, which in turn is met with “necessary” repression, [1] and then the same pattern repeats, each level growing more and more violent without really resolving the underlying problem (or evil).

The spiral feeds upon itself. The individual zealot tries to rise above “the rotten, decadent system,” [2] as Dorothy Day called it, by attempting solutions that usually attack the symptoms. That attempt may make the individual and the state feel moral, but it rarely touches the underlying causes. Think of the policies that led the United States to build a wall at the border instead of honestly asking why people want to come to begin with. Why was a wall terrible in Berlin but salvific in Juarez, San Diego, and the present state of Israel? We criminalize the actions of desperate individuals, but rarely question the global economic systems and untouchable corporations that keep such unequal circumstances in place for their own gain.

Frankly, addressing root causes and taking appropriate action require a lot more work and spiritual intelligence. Our egos will always be on the lookout for a quick fix and immediate satisfaction, which too often leads to a deeply flawed solution. But the gift of contemplative practice is the ability to remain humble and hold the tension between the rightness and wrongness on each side of the issue until the Spirit moves in and offers us a wiser course of action.

Câmara saw how many righteous cures were worse than the disease itself (for example, communism as a response to poverty, fascism as a desire for social order, prohibition as a solution to alcohol abuse, or our current inability to tackle the issue of immigration in an intelligent way). Non-contemplative “cures,” which lack love and holistic wisdom, never address the underlying violence which most people have already agreed not to see. We support the evil of the system and then pretend to hate this same evil in individuals.

This lack of recognition of the root causes of evil is the source of much of the moral powerlessness of most Christian nations, institutions, and individuals. Because we thought we had God on our side, we believed all the things we did were good or even God-blessed! But many people now recognize that isn’t true and never has been, which leads me to believe we are more than ready for authentic and effective contemplative action.

Richard Rohr, 15/1/2020

Libero

Bravo Auldheid. I was chuffed the BB keenly wanted my winger qualities and who I supported didnt feature…not that I recall.
I also fleetingly appeared for The Mungo FPs – travel from sooside was eventually a killer – where one of our Mungo (proddy) mids was virulently offended when an opponent called him a fenian; lol. All the amateur teams I played with accepted all differences.
You despair? Can you imagine any deity looking at all these groups of confused churchies egomaniacally proclaiming to be the better or best christians, far less watching groups of colour separated muppets using hate and resentment to fuel their own acclaimed superiority.
Yer right…make up your own mind about who you want to be. HH

Auldheid

just found this on sectarianism after the Shame Game by Dr John Kelly Edinburgh Uni.

https://celticunderground.net/sectarian-summit-flawed-basis-flawed-solutions/

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McCAFF

Congratulations on a superb article,and one which makes so much sense. When the sins of two parties are given equal prominence despite the sins of one being so much greater than the other,it makes sense for the minor transgressors to step down from the fray and let the focus be on the real culprits.

As an example,were the SPFL to bring in points deductions for singing certain songs,I would gladly dust off the 70s song book and relive my youth with some gusto. And as soon as we got pulled for it,stop. Because we can,anytime. Them,not so much. Haters gonna hate. They’d probably get their team relegated if those rules were strictly applied!

Sadly,as has been pointed out by others,there is no real desire in Scottish society to stop songs of anti-Irish Catholicism,of bloodlust,hatred and bile being belted out by the hun hordes. There is no real desire to apply the law even as it stands to those who do,no wish for the protection ordered in law to be applied re hate crimes against minorities whether they be based on race,gender,colour,religion,you name it.

Personally,I’ve come round fairly recently-and reluctantly!-to the idea that our songs of celebration and commemoration for those who fought their fights long before us be kept for the clubs and supporters buses. But even that wouldn’t be enough for the haters. Stuck for a story filled with typical righteous indignation,our beloved MSSM would soon be sending undercover reporters there,or taking photos of fans with tiny wee enamelled badges on their scarves,with the headlines-They haven’t gone away,you know!

There is way too much wrong in Scottish society,sadly,for everything just to be hunky-dory if we all simply turned up with our scarves-oops,naw,too much green and white!-and some wooden rattles and sang songs only about our players. And it doesn’t start at gutter level with those attending at Ibrox in the cheap seats.

Think of the fact that Mike Ashley only started winning his court cases against them when he changed the battlefield to English courts. Look at how the police treated the receivers of Rangers(IL) when they arrested them under an illegal warrant and held them in custody. Look at other straightforward court cases up here where they have been the defendant and won against all the odds.

Look how difficult it was for even HMRC to get a verdict against them!

McCAFF,I said it was a terrific article,and I genuinely believe it is. But for things to change takes more than you suggest. It certainly won’t be achieved by us just chucking the songs and telling the rest of Scotland-Look,you can se that we aren’t the problem.

Because sadly,for far too many,our very existence is the problem.

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AWENAW

I recall him as the worst of a very bad bunch. Disgraceful that he has got the job,but it was always gonna be him or similar.

Auldheid

Friesdorfer

A bit about Truth and Reconciliation from 2011. Some of the links don’t work now. I got the Cardinal in Edinburgh interested in the idea but his political and media guys didn’t think there was anyone on the other side ready to engage!

http://celticunderground.net/nothing-to-see-here-timmy-move-on/

The big problem is lack of self awareness and willingness to find out who we are. I sometimes wonder if folk who do not like others don’t like themselves either (even subconsciously) and are afraid to make that inner journey for fear of what they will find.

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THEGOMBEENMAN

Telling-reality bites!-last paragraph. I suppose it may be true that God will be the ultimate judge,but Father Rohr has clearly noticed that he’s standing well back from the fray.

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AULDHEID 1132

Nobody else to engage with. Yep. And so it goes.

ASWGL

Awe Naw January 15, 2020 9:42 am

Has Morelos turned up in bonny Scotland yet ?

————-

I’m pretty sure his Electronic Ankle Tag (bleeping at Glesga airport) to the tune of some anti-catholic song, would have caught the attention of our ever vigilant truth seeking SMS

So naw

bada bing1

https://twitter.com/i/status/1217401038464069633

Polish Paddy No 11,hope he does as well as the last one

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I’d play him against Thistle.

Friesdorfer

My goodness, the outstanding quality of posts today is very inspiring – well done McCaff for stirring the conscience, mine anyway. On reflection, I must challenge my own beliefs and practices before condemning others. My children were brought up as Catholics, but neither are now church attendees- their choice, and I would never impose my beliefs on them. My brother in law is a Sevco supporter, and is a great guy, and never a Hun. So where does this leave me? I believe in love and let live, as long as others do likewise. Confused.com.

M6Bhoy
I think- think – I agree with the point on Catholic schools, and I was brought up in the same way. But, isn’t there always a but, the fundamental reason for the introduction of Catholic schools in the first place has not gone away. As has been said many times, get rid of Orange Walks, and that would be a game changer.

Friesdorfer

Live and let live…??

Friesdorfer

The Gombeen Mhan
That is a powerful essay from Fr. Rohr.
HH

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FIESDORFER

Might have been right the first time,mate.

Oglach

Something that some should remember as history has taught on many occasions ‘appeasement’ never works.

” I believe it is peace for our time. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Now I recommend you go home, and sleep quietly in your beds”

Neville Chamberlain CSC

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OGLACH

There are plenty of countries in the world,who despite having some serious armed forces,have long declared neutrality. Granted it didn’t work for,say,Belgium,as they were somewhat in the way of someone else’s plans,but it’s worked out fine for a lot of the others.

It isn’t “appeasement” that’s the problem-it’s the intentions of others.

Oglach

Bobby

100 % disagree. I can’t recall a policy of apeasement ever being proven, historically, as a sound stance. Negotiating from a position of strength when you are prepared to use force is not appeasement.
Backing down from a ‘perceived ‘ threat of violence never works – A Scottish example – last year OO marches being allowed after 1st being being banned as the Scots Police were concerend at the threat of ‘violence’ all that has done is emboldened them. And as we are aware in the 1930′ the appeasement of the Nazis due to the threat of violence – that is until it was too late.Had France and Britain called the Nazis bluff over the annexation of Czechoslovakia history probably would have been very very different.

ASWGL

Academy bhoys go 0-1 up against Chelsea in 67 minutes Scott Robertson

That number rings a bell

fan-a-tic

Oglach
I agree that appeasement doesn’t work.
The Exiled Tim often repeated this stance and i have always sided with him on this issue.
It is also not just a football and schools issue.
Blame Catholic schools and conveniently forget the circumstances that created them.
The shame game were the Celtic board tried appeasement for something we did not do?
How did that work out?
Until the best wee country admits to it’s prejudices it will always be a whataboutery situation as they have no real defense for their mindset.
There is a collective effort by the establishment and authorities to keep it hidden.
While privately they snigger and gloat.
All part of their insecurity that knows their supremacist views are bogus.
Appeasement only fuels their agenda.

Mike

McCaff forgive my interjection because your life experience mirrors much of my own.

Born in the Raploch, my Scots Grandad a miner a convert to Catholicism, if you knew my Grandmother, you would understand why he converted. She was the first love of my life. Grandad attended early Mass came back to make the most delicious breakfasts, we attended the later Mass. For me a Catholic education which besides the usual subjects also taught religious education, that was always about love of your fellow man, it was never about hatred to anyone. I became an alter bhoy and served Mass under many different priests and bishops, never once was I mistreated or even heard about abuse. Imagine my horror to hear about it later.

The Catholic Education Act came was adopted in 1918, long after there was sectarianism, a Catholic education with Catholic teachers was about education, again they taught us how to love our fellow man, Catholic education has nothing what so ever to do with religious bigotry or sectarianism, that is a squirrel put out by secularists who want to follow their own agenda. Believe, don’t believe, its your choice. My local MSP is a Tory, but an educated woman who has nothing but praise for a Catholic education, she spoke up for it recently when I asked her too and backed Monica Lennon’s bill to safeguard Catholic education in the Hollyrood chamber, if you read her text it was inspiring. So I make a point in trying to understand another persons point of view and leave bigotry to the bigots.

My wife ( the second love)and her family were members of the Congregational church, you could not meet such honest and beautiful human beings, my father in law was a Hearts supporter, the stories I could tell, one of the sweetest guys that I have had the privilege to meet.

James Dornan MSP. gave up his attempt to become deputy First Minister to try to tackle sectarianism but after 15 months he had, had enough, he could get no support “no-one cares enough to stop bigotry or sectarianism” in the Scottish parliament, they were either disinterested or frightened, remember Trish Godman experience, two days after Lenny’s bullets and bombs in the post.

Last thing: The Orange Order hides behind the European Commissions Humans Right Legislation Act, article 11.
“Right to freedom of peaceful assembly and the right to freedom of association with others.”
“No restrictions shall be placed on the exorcise of these rights other than such as prescribed by law.”
This Act, “The right to freedom of assembly, protects assemblies, parades or protests that take place in private and those on public thoroughfares.”
I spoke several times along with many others to protest about these walks to Glasgow City Council the parades department especially after the despicable assaults on Canon Whyte, although sympathetic they stated that there was little that they could do, obviously because of the above.

Good article McCaff and best wish’s to all on Sentinel Celts.

m6bhoy

Friesdorfer
I think- think – I agree with the point on Catholic schools, and I was brought up in the same way. But, isn’t there always a but, the fundamental reason for the introduction of Catholic schools in the first place has not gone away. As has been said many times, get rid of Orange Walks, and that would be a game changer.
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I think the establishment of catholic schools in Scotland had more to do with giving the church hierarchy a mechanism to control their “flock” rather than a shield against bigotry.

Friesdorfer

BMCUWP
??

Friesdorfer

M6bhoy
My understanding is that the 1918 Education Act (Scotland) recognised that education is a universal right and therefore brought the privately funded catholic schools into the state system which they were outside of at the time. You are undoubtedly correct though in that the Catholic hierarchy sought to, and largely succeeded in, ensuring that they had a significant influence on the curriculum.
HH

Friesdorfer

Auldheid
Yes, there is a lot of Truth required for Reconciliation to succeed, Forgiveness being an essential element. Let (s)he who is without sin cast the first stone…

Mike in Toronto

Auldheid

I was one who questioned whether a lasting peace process would work in Ireland without some form of a Truth and Reconciliation process ….

one of those (rare) times, when I was pleased to be proven wrong .

bada bing1

African Cup of Nations moved from summer to next Jan/Feb….WTF…

big packy

EVENING ALL, after posting this morning about bigotry I became one this morning, driving down to the dog grooming salon, got stuck at the roundabout outside asda, notced a lorry going round and round obviously lost, then noticed it was a Scottish lorry, said to the mrs I need to try and help this chap, then seen so and so transport airdrie, that’s it I said he can find his own way, he is probably an airdrie hun, now we have been married nearly 40 years she knows what a hun is, she said to me so you are not prepared to help that chap because you think he might be a protestant and support rangers, im disgusted with you she said, then it hit me, im posting on the blog about thems and I just became one, I quickly pulled over onto the road I had last seen him in, to try and catch him up, but he had gone, its been going thru my mind all day, I let myself down today, I stooped to their level. I apologise to the blog.hh.

Friesdorfer

Big Packy 1
Well said.
HH

big packy

FRIESDORFER, ?

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