To The Limit

Morning,all.

OGLACH raised a good point in an early response to yesterday’s article. Namely,just how much time should we be willing to give AP before we start getting the return on investment which as Celtic fans we think is a given.

I remember when he first started posting elsewhere,and he applied the suffix UFB to his moniker. I’m pretty sure that it didn’t refer to a desire to be considered as unceasingly forgiving,and of course few of us are that anyway. But I believe that such is the nature of the task facing our new manager,the mountain that he has to climb to undo the damage that has been done particularly in the last two years,that perhaps we will have to cut our newbie boss a bit more slack than we would otherwise be comfortable with. 

I’ve explained in the past that we have employed new managers at some of the lowest ebbs in our history. 1978 and 1987 each saw the arrival of The One True King Billy. 1994 gave us the return of a much loved son,and also of maybe the best football any of us has seen,while 2000 brought us a winning mentality not seen before unless you were lucky enough to witness Jock’s best sides,but another glimpse of which was given to us just recently with the arrival of Brendan Rodgers.

All of these true legends in our history had a team to build in their own way,one which reflected how they felt the game should be played. Each of them effectively came in with a clean sheet as far as the support were concerned. After all,we can be a lot of things but we are not stupid! Generally,the reason why we have a new manager in the first place is because the previous one had been found wanting. 

In much the same way that in boxing,it can be argued that styles make fights-and therefore determine the winner-so too it could be said that players make managers. There are exceptions of course,in the ring we sometimes see an unstoppable force of nature,such as Mike Tyson. Some of us at the time thought that only Mike himself could defeat him. We were half right. It was the arrival of a tiny eight stone girl,coinciding with the death of his long term mentor and trainer,which did for him.

So is it how a boxer is managed which determines success? If so,does that apply to footballers too-as so ably proved over the years by how Brian Clough turned journeymen into worldbeaters,but worldbeaters who simply couldn’t perform under anyone else? Jock famously said that his greatest achievement was to keep Wee Jimmy playing at the top level for five years longer than anyone else could. Our greatest ever player was only 30 years old when he left,but he sure gave us some memories.

However,I don’t think anyone before him has accepted the job on the same terms,under the same circumstances,as are facing AP at the moment. The decline in quality since the last days of Martin O’Neill has been staring us in the face for the best part of two decades,and those of us who warned about it were rounded upon and decried in some vile terms. Sometimes we still are,though civility seems to have returned at the same time as that healthy dose of reality that a boot in the baws like last season seems to provide. 

Nothing like a boot in the nether regions to open someone’s eyes!

Well,this new season at Celtic Park is,I feel,gonna be a real eye-opener for AP. Of course he will have been briefed upon the innate hostility awaiting him from The Press. Actually,I have no fears for him in that regard as he seems to consider them generally in much the same way that the support do. They owe their living to their ability to castigate and demean any incumbent Celtic manager,whether it be offering to race one of them round the perimeter or telling the world that a snarling-faced manager brought bombs and bullets “on himself” 

AP will either ignore or dismiss these self-appointed arbiters of public approval-because the only people whose approval he should be seeking is us. The fans. And he can only do that by giving us a winning team,and I mean yesterday. 

Or so OGLACH would have us believe. And while this article is in no way intended as a personal dig at our fine fella-it isn’t,I’ve got a strong feeling that I’d need the good trainers on if ever I meet him,but nothing that a pleasant couple of pints couldn’t put right!-I think this is our time,the only time in my life,to realise that wanting success NOW is not a viable place to start.

One of my hun pals recently told me that they were set for an easy five years of it. I think there are a few out there like him,if I’m honest. Give these peepul an inch and they’ll take a liberty! I conceded that we were unlikely to be challengers next season,but that I was pretty damn sure that they had better keep a hold of the ticket for that pawn shop that they hived off the trophy to. OGLACH clearly expects us to achieve the second coming of Lazarus immediately,but I think that the rebuild that is required of the man is too much to expect of any one man in such a short time.

That’s all it is,we agree on every other point. Just not the time scale. Oh,and the other associated point. Like how much time do we give to a man if he isn’t-as I expect-putting us up there as challengers,or even winning the bloody thing in the first place?

Well,this brings us back to some real fundamentals. The fundamentals which led MAHE and I to start this site less than three years ago in the first place. We had some serious assistance to do so,but we did so in the face of some ridicule. That the site has been a success is down,as we’ve always said,to the quality of our posters. But in one respect,I think it is down to the one consistency that MAHE and I have shared from Day One. And that is the poisonous legacy of Lawwell,and worse,what he was doing to our club while in office.

ATHINGOFBEAUTY mentioned yesterday about how quick John Reid was shuttled out of office for speaking out,speaking up in favour of the support,in a way that had only been done once in our 120 years at the time. Replaced by a nodding donkey/horse’s arse,take your pick. AP and DMcK have to pick up the reins-Royal Ascot week,so pardon the horsey metaphors!-from a jockey who threw the race for his own reasons. We will never know whether this was done from simple self-interest or just to show how clever he was-not much,as it turned out-but a brief convo yesterday with AULDHEID shows where our thoughts are reluctantly heading towards. 

As Celtic supporters,we should expect the best we can get. With AP,I actually doubt that to be the case. But I do believe he will prove to be a tremendous asset,a man for his times. We need a firefighter,and since BADABING has taken a well earned retirement,AP will do us all nicely. But,and this is where OGLACH UFB and I slightly differ,we have to remember that”Rome wasn’t built in a day”

And as BADABING will tell you,it takes a bloody while to put out a fire once it has caught hold. Time and patience and a ruthless attention to detail is needed.

******

Above article by BMCUWP

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BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS

Obviously for any Celtic fan wanting an early ” Feelgood Factor” of a morning,that might not be the article for you!

Cheer up,have a crack at our free Royal Ascot competition instead.

D R M had a 66/1 winner yesterday simply from applying his own patented formula. So it can be done.

https://sentinelcelts.com/2021/06/14/royal-ascot/

jimthetim53

Morning all & Packy.

No need to feel guilty DRM, taking a shortcut in a hurry is no crime! 🙂 Well done.

D R M

Morning, good article and I think any manager who plays exciting attacking football should be given time to establish that style. That was the celtic way of playing and was one of the reasons as a wee boy that was the team for me.

Thanks Jim only picked number 6 as the favourite in first race was that number.

Off to work but not in a rush today😄, good luck all today👍

big packy rumenigge

MORNING ALL and JIM, just done my selection jim, think i might be taking home a bagful of money today😎😎

big packy rumenigge

BOBBY, good article as always, but we can discuss A.P. till the cows come home, the proof will be in the pudding, dont forget he has never managed in europe before, never mind scotland with the bent referees, I wish him well, H.H.

Maestro Fan

I too have cautiously optimistic, but realistic hopes for AP. My gut tells me he’s a much better fit for us than smart, but mild Eddie Howe. As ever, AP’s prospects will be determined by the chains the PLC puts on him. Lawwell was the epitome of the (not very) hidden hand of constraint. Will McKay just be more of the same? Jury’s out.

PS On Lennon’s blather about Lawwell and Desmond yesterday. He remains part of the problem and on the wrong side of history. I fear your hun mate might be right about the next 5 years. If he is, that will truly be the time to judge Lawwell’s legacy.

Le baldy qu’est Jobo

Good morning, friends from a disappointingly grey and drizzly EK. Personally one of things that has become worse over the last 10 – 15 years is the impatience of many Celtic fans. A ‘no room for error’ attitude where every single game must be won with not a single player making a single mistake. New signings or youth players getting written off after 30 minutes.
We definitely do need to give Angelo Postecoglou time, especially if we find that he has to change most of last season’s first team picks. Long term gain has to be the aim.

The Gombeen Man

So the SPFL, FIX-ture algorithm, spat out a front- loaded, mouthwatering round of fixtures. No doubt, designed to entice waiverers to part with their bank account details.

Celtic are supposedly in a period of transformation. Pedro, Lenny and Broonie have left the clique riddled scene.

We’ve a new CEO, who is really a Chief Operations Officer, reporting into the real CEO, Dermot Desmond.

The publication of the Annual Results is key. Last time we had £22m in Reserve and declared a profit of £100k. We deferred player disposals and spent about £20m, but still didn’t have a significant net spend.

Off the field, the lack of investment in Coaching led to unprecedented levels of poor engagement among players. This was compounded by continued poor recruitment and a perceived failure to let players move on.

Dermot sets the vision and the Big Picture stuff. Operations Managers do all of the day to day stuff.

Post Seville we moved away from the Boom and Bust economics that bedevils football and sunk Rangers.

Rangers still subscribe to Boom and Bust economics. Infact subscribe is the wrong term. That word infers paying dues.

There are a number of problems,

1) Desmond’s economics relies on the toxicity of the Old Firm.

That’s our reliable earner. Easy liquidity (supposedly).

2) Europe is too big a risk. Prior to Seville we’d done very little in Europe since 1970.
Seville required Share Issue to straighten out.

3) The slow lane protects the brand and delivers the occasion success of Group Stage Qualification.

4) The lack of ambition at the Club means we’ve lost our mojo. We’re wasteful with a suspicion of too many too long in jobs throughput the Club.

When the results are published expect to see the usual deflection. Covid, Nicola Sturgeon, the New Breed, traffic cones, Martin Luther, King Billy, Global Warming etcetera.

Given where Ange is starting from, he’s got his hands full. Let’s see what his Coaching Team looks like in a few weeks/months…How long did it take Fergie to turn United around?

We need a goal to work towards that engages, staff, players and supporters and delivers financial stability.

The thought of the future bring about the turgidity and dated Old Firm is a dead end.

Can Ange turn it around?

That depends on whether the Support and the Board are able to sit with the pain of defeats and disappointments.

For that to happen there needs to be a bigger picture than just beating “The Huns.”

Thinking on that level is distorted by Fear.

Till Later.

fan-a-tic

The Gombeen Man
Fear is our biggest issue.
DD fears the loss of the huns as he would have to find another way of shoring up the share price.
Lawwell feared being called to account so filled the board with nodding dogs.
Fear of the establishment leads to accepting being cheated.
Fear of our uppity support so help given to corrupt police to neuter and brutalize them.
Fear of a quality coach acting in a professional manner and leaving the Old Firm partnership in tatters.
Fear meant appointing an unqualified coach who bent to his master’s wishes.
Fear in not realizing constant profit so hawking off anything of value no matter how detrimental it is to the team.

saltires voting for Christmas

Bobby

Good shout – ‘time’ will be as much of a resource requirement as bringing in the right players to fit the new system.

I hope he gets the time, but just don’t think he will.

The days of ‘the faithful’ are long gone.

The 5 Sorrowful Mysteries wouldn’t be tolerated. Kelly’ Kids hunted and
Quality Street Kids scoffed at

Only half kidding’

saltires voting for Christmas

TGM

Excellent stuff today!

fan-a-tic

BMCUWP
i believe Ange having no experience of European football and particularly the SPL to be a bonus.
There is nothing to be learned in an environment decades behind the times.
Maybe a wholly new approach is needed?
Some of our unfairly discarded youth may flourish with a new approach and likewise some imposters be shown the door.
Hopefully he is the forthright guy we have been told he is and won’t suffer fools and show meek acceptance to the SFA cheats and their partners in the mssm.

St tams

Let’s see if Ange is allowed to appoint his own backroom staff and restructure the academy,.
The club needs completely overhauled from top to bottom. Hopefully he is allowed to do this.
He apparently has good experience of developing youth players. In my opinion the academy hasn’t been giving value for money as it is.
The youth players need to see a pathway to first team football. This hasn’t been happening, as has been shown by the amount of boys that have left and moved onto other clubs.

If we allow him time to implement his own strategy and improvement can be seen. Not winning the league next season wouldn’t be a disaster.

saltires voting for Christmas

Fan-a-tic

Yeah – the fear factor is huge

Creating a fear in support that if they don’t cough up there will be more and yet more austerity

The bluff has to be called.

Everyone sees visitors coming to CP each season who look fit, handy, organised, technically proficient and hugely motivated to play at a high tempo for 90 minutes

They don’t cost the earth and don’t command huge sums

Something fundamental is missing at the club and it starts at the very top

saltires voting for Christmas

St Tams

Yes buddy, agreeing with all of that. A wee bit of patience and trust in youth to develop.

Big Audio Dynamite

Midj …mitt ….mind ..that team from Daneland? Aye, them.

auldheid

Jobo (for short)

There is a reason for the impatience as long as RFC Ltd are beating everyone else or close to it. Every point is a prisoner and it is only when there is a comfortable points gap or goals gap in a game that the match becomes enjoyable.

Football should be a source of joy, win or lose but not when our opponents are not playing the same financial game as us, and we do nothing to counter.

Garry Enrique

BMCUW
Great article.
Agree with Fan a Tic.
Ange is in the same mould of manager as Marcelo Bielsa. He knows all about European football though. The majority of his over performing Socceroos team were based in Europe. Ange knows all about European football.
This guy is the Real Deal.

Garry Enrique

Saint Tams
I am buzzing about the appointment of Ange Postecoglou. Celtic have found the Antipodean Special One.
Great times ahead.

jimthetim53

Packy, I had 2 Non Runners at Ascot today. so I just replaced them with your choices for those races. If they turn out to be donkeys – it’s your fault! 🙂

Big Audio Dynamite

Have we told the world who we are ‘competing’ against yet? No?

WHY!?

Big Audio Dynamite

It certainly isn’t Rangers* they left this mortal coil a long time ago.

Big Audio Dynamite

When we meet Sevco and the board tell the printers who we are facing, what do they tell them to put on the cover?

Who are we actually playing against? Or better …

Who do the board want you to think we are playing?

Hmmm!

Big Audio Dynamite

Ffs!

Give us your money, but can you have a think about wether you actually want to be here in person.

You sure?

Amateur hour!

auldheid

I looked in on The Celtic Shared Zoom meeting last night to get an idea of their thinking on a response to Celtic’s unprofessional response to the proposal for added value via a shares.

They will post minutes I understand and I’ll leave the detail to them but 3 things stood out.

1. The account given of the meeting with Celtic was very disturbing. It could be summed up as the Celtic supporter representatives went in hoping to hear something positive in response to the idea but were told to fuck off. (I normally dont use that word in full but it conveys the emotional element, so please dont edit lads)

2.The chair mentioned a key word as in what was wanted – accountability and I pointed the attendees to SC blog Director Responsibilities Remedies. I got backdoor positive feedback on that idea.

3. Another attendee asked if the group leader would pick up on Res12 but the initial reaction was dismissive. However that let me state the case and whilst the discussion was short because the meeting for some was about the football not the business, I nevertheless persuaded some attendees Res12 follow up should be on the table and was promised a phone call to bring the Chair up to speed.

The Chair, who did great work on FAC , also recognised the need for a coordinated response and will no doubt be making that point at CST meeting on 21st.

I was also able to provide the information on the draft proposals on SFA Reform and Board Reform tabled at the CST AGM and explain that whilst Res12 initially was seeking SFA accountability it had moved on to seeking Board accountability and in response to a suggestion of going legal I added I was exploring that route.

What I hope from this is the establishment of a coordinating group under CST umbrella concentrating on Board Reform using various approaches as some mechanism for doing so is clearly needed.

One last word on Res12. I asked had anyone ever wondered why the tone was dismissive and what had Celtic to hide?

It’s almost as if some groups had folk in their midst trying to kill it and the question is why…..

SFTB

Time and patience and a ruthless attention to detail is needed.

And fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms

BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS

AULDHEID

Worryingly,that many of us have very strong suspicions about the why,we should maybe concerned about how deep that why goes.

Gordon64

Celtic face FC Midtjylland in UCL qualifying tie

Ange Postecoglou’s Celtic side will take on Danish side, FC Midtjylland in the second qualifying round of the UEFA Champions League following today’s draw in Nyon, Switzerland.

The Hoops are scheduled to play the first leg at home on July 20/21, with the return leg a week later on July 27/28. Confirmation on both fixtures to follow.

It will be Celtic’s first meeting with FC Midtjylland, who finished second in the Danish league last season, and who have former Celt, Erik Sviatchenko in their ranks.

The home leg of this UCL second qualifying round tie is part of the 2021/22 season ticket, either in person or virtually via the Pass to Paradise.

Rebus67

How much time will Ange need? If you follow what is published on his career you will see two commonalities throughout the mature part of his career. Firstly, he usually has a clear out when he arrives at a new position. To an extent this is happening or going to happen for him. If he continues to clear out from the remaining rump of players, it will take longer to achieve a settled side, far less a successful one. Secondly, and probably related to the first point, he has never achieved instant success. It has taken him one to two seasons to achieve that. Saying he will hit the ground running, which he will, is different from saying he will achieve instant success, i.e., success in the first season.

Again if you look at the facts, he has not had a better than 50% win rate in his mature coaching career which I count from 2009 to date.

Frankly, this is a very strange appointment. Perhaps an acceptable risk but at entirely the wrong time.

If you watch the videos of his career, you cannot help but be impressed with the human aspect of his story. Poor immigrant family adjusting to a new culture and country, strong work ethic, local boy makes good…….are endearing themes throughout these videos. His interest, bordering on obsession with football is also clear…..for example, jetting off the day after the birth of his child! Something that would not have been tolerated in my household, nor in that of my parents or in-laws!

How much knowledge does he have of the European, English and Scottish player pools? Who knows? I suspect he knows little of prospects at Hibs, Dundee United and Aberdeen. I also suspect that he knows little about the English Championship, outside of the teams that just completed the playoffs. These are likely to be our main recruiting markets. So, he really needs someone at the club who knows these markets. This suggests that some of the existing coaching team will be retained. He will, of course, have knowledge of the Asian and Australian markets but recruiting quickly from there is unlikely due to work permit issues.

An additional interesting fact emerged from one of his interviews. He stated that in order for him to succeed, the players have to believe in him. Is this why he clears out existing squads? How easy will it be for him to establish the trust of players like Calmac who have played at higher levels than he has coached? I guess this is the magic he either has or does not have.

I wish him well but I sense an unfolding disaster. Failing to win any of his first three games will create a cage from which he may never be released. Or, actually, he will be released!

Rebus

SFTB

Celtic in talks with Canada born keeper for Haiti

https://twitter.com/mrdanwalker/status/1405033691177435139?s=24

Garry Enrique

Rebus
Ange knows all about European football.
His Socceroo team was comprised of mainly European based players. A few from Scotland and England. This guy knows fitba.

Rebus67

Garry,

Good to know you read my pap. Between us we present a balanced view of Ange’s chances.

Did you watch the ACSOM Bulletin where they interviewed the lad from the Japan Times?

Rebus

ASWGL (A stag in Prague)

Interesting leader BMCUW,

I’m not sure why BR is lauded so much, sure he and his backroom staff had a way of coaching that suited us at that particular time in domestic football, but let’s not forget the domestic competition was at best poor, and his european jaunts were at best cringeworthy, I wasn’t sad to see the back of our european hammerings under BR.

As BP would say parkhead used to be a place to fear a fortress that euro teams were wary of coming to.

Now MON I agree was more to my liking and we did well both domestically and in Europe under Martin.

I wish I had yours and Garry’s enthusiasm for AP but I don’t, I’m more in the Rebus camp, AP is an unknown quantity. I wish him well and he will have my total good wishes, I know you are suggesting he will need time, however Celtic fans (myself included) are not known for their patience.

HH

big packy rumenigge

AFTERNOON ALL and JIM, jim hope you have not jinxed me by pinching my horses😎😎 50/50 if we win🙏

BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS

ASWGL,REBUS67

I’m not actually a huge fan of this appointment,as I think we could and should have aimed our sights considerably higher. I particularly wanted such as AVB or Marco Silva,both of whom are currently out of work.

Today’s article wasn’t intended as a vote of confidence in his appointment. In fact,it could actually be viewed as the exact opposite of that. I clearly have no confidence in his ability to turn this round overnight-but then,I don’t think anyone could. That is how far we have fallen,and we have to be honest about the whole situation that we find ourselves in.

My thinking is that we need to give AP time to deliver. Everything at our club is broken,and that is hardly his fault. I don’t intend to give him an easy ride because of this,and will be as critical as I usually am when necessary. But that doesn’t alter the fact that we are starting here from a low base,and should judge him by that.

Consistent improvement rather than overnight success should be our benchmark. And the reason why I am fine with such a low benchmark lies not with AP or DMcK,but with their predecessors.

There are posters on this site with experience of walking into a bombed out company. They too can tell you what is needed. A healthy dose of reality is usually a good starting point.

jimthetim53

Packy, Your first horse came in second. That’s you got 5 points already! Well done 🙂

Away out for a hair cut.

big packy rumenigge

spoke to two taxi drivers today, there was a taxi rank outside our shop when we had it, so know most of them, hey jimmy they said thank feck they did not call me JOCK i would have been annoyed😎 if we cant beat scotland ill give up, hey this is the time to get them too cocky, come on steve clarke and scotland get intae these sassenachs,.oops sorry joan,.another true story.👍

big packy rumenigge

HI JIM thats great, we shall share the spoils👍

Mike in Toronto

On the strength of a comical own goal by the Haitian goalkeeper last night, the mighty Canada (Fifa ranking 70) go into the final round of 8 for WC qualifying.

Canada have to finish in the top 3 (4th place goes into a play off) from a group consisting of:
Mexico (Fifa ranking 11)
US (20)
Jamaica (45)
Costa Rica (50)
Honduras (67)
El Salvador (69)
Panama (78)

Mexico and the US would seem to be a lock for the top two spots, but for the first time in a while, we seem to have a team that can compete with, and beat the rest. We have a keeper who is starting for Red Star Belgrade, plus two young strikers who are playing and scoring for top teams (Jonathan David at Lille and Cyle Larin at Besiktas), plus of course, the only man who might be faster than Mbape, Bayern Munich’s Alphonso Davies.

Hey … if Scotland can qualify for the Euro’s … anything can happen!

Margaret McGill

The reason that the Scottish national team over 60 years have went from contenders to moribund is that the Scottish national football obsession has been to obliterate the memory of Jock Stein. That’s what caused the liquidation of Rangers. Not to be outdone the vile repugnant filth that has become Celtic have joined forces with our national scum to continue in this noble Scottish quest at the expense of all sporting integrity. Maybe thats why the last 2 generations of Scottish kids would rather play video games. I wish I had.

Big Audio Dynamite

Playing with one leg tied up behind yer arse.

So we have left the new man with 5 weeks to mend a broken squad and get them ready for our first Euro qualifier?

What was it Einstein said about madness?

big packy rumenigge

MAGS, thats true about the video games, no video games when wee jinky was growing up, just put some milk bottles on the floor and waltzed round them for hours, what was called a tanner ba player, noticed i said milk bottles, for you younger ghuys milk used to be in glass bottles, i know because i used to deliver them, another true story,👍

big packy rumenigge

BIG AUDIO DYNAMITE hows trix pal, im on your wavelength 👍

Mike in Toronto

BAD

re: ‘madness is doing the same thing, and expecting a different result’

although that quote is often attributed to Einstein, he never actually said it. The first known use of that expression was from an AA pamphlet …

although, given how Celtic are near driving us to drink, that may be more appropriate!

🙂

big packy rumenigge

so jims gone for a haircut, why does he have to rub it in, i started losing my hair 30 years ago when i was a ten year old ,lifes not fair,,another not true story,😎

Rebus67

The correct type of coach for Celtic? He is hard to find but his initials are S E and his name is…..
……..Syn Ergy. He has multiple nationalities and uses a variety of formations.

However, he always gets more out of his teams than the sum of its parts. Does AP know S E? Let’s hope so because his budget looks to be limited.

Rebus

Margaret McGill

“I never said that” – Einstein

Big Audio Dynamite

I’m good Packy, thanks for asking.

Hope you’re well mate 👍

Big Audio Dynamite

Mike, also appropriate might be the prayer they say at the end of AA meetings.

God, grant me serenity to accept the things I cannot change …
Courage to change the things I can …
And the wisdom to know the difference.

Or summit like that!

BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS

BIGPACKY

Ten year old? Slipped that under the radar,ya sly oul’ bugger!

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