Bottoms Up!

Morning,all.
 
I was sent a guest article yesterday,which being planned as today’s piece meant that I had a day off. I love stuff like this-for the obvious reason that I get a day off!
 
 
Sadly,he asked me to pull it,as some of the content could not be proved. Bastert.
 
 
It referenced the £20m loans to clubs,and to whom exactly it went. There are conflicting accounts-hence why it has been pulled-about whether eleven clubs or six clubs took advantage of this free money.
 
 
If someone offered me £1.6m interest free over twenty years,you would never get me out of the pub. Seems some clubs declined that offer-which left the money available to the remaining clubs.
 
 
And I think we can all guess which club was at the front of the queue for their £3m and more.
 
 
I said yesterday in a comment that I wouldn’t be judging AP on this season alone,but on the progress being made. And that I know who I hold responsible for the regression in the last two years or so. Most comments I make on the site-or elsewhere-are pretty much throwaway things,but I was very serious about that one.
 
 
And if Celtic declined to take an interest free loan,knowing full well that their share would be given to our rivals,there are serious questions to be asked.
 
 
Of course,there have been serious questions to be asked for the last decade or so. And we know how that has gone. We have a huge problem at our club as regards governance,as certain people will confirm.
 
 
An interest free loan to our rivals-which is effectively what we did-is the least of our worries. As I said,I know who I hold responsible. The big question is why he did it.
 
Maybe the smartest man in the room was the elephant in the room all along.
 
*******
 
Above article by BMCUWP

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Scotland the Brave, don't lift ma kilt - Mahe
Big Audio Dynamite

Being a carer of those afflicted by that horrible illness, I wish Bertie and his family all the best.

We’ll support you evermore.

God bless him.

GER57

Real interest rates right now are approximately 0.25% , an interest free loan of £3m isn’t that big a deal. Should we have taken up “our share” just to spite them? We’re better than that.
Our board has no credibility with the fans, so a statement explaining their reasoning would fall on deaf ears.

GER57

I want to hear a positive vibe from CP asap after the Euros. Announcement of new captain, a couple of signings and a decent show v Midgettland. We are starting from scratch here.

Twisty

Ger 57
Interest rates are indeed at an all time low, but regardless of that, anyone refusing a loan of up to £3m which is interest free would be foolish in the extreme.

Anyone in a financial position refusing an interest free loan at those levels needs to have their position reviewed.

My understanding was that the loans available were £1.6m. It could go higher if some clubs refused to take advantage of it, with the unclaimed amounts being split between those who took up the offer.

Now if you assume even the £1.6m figure, that money just sitting in an investment account for 20 years would accumulate a rather tidy sum in interest, and even at today’s paltry rates, you’ll find business accounts that offer 0.5%.

Now you do the math on that and tell me why anyone would refuse interest free money?

Makes no sense which makes me think the story cannot be true. If it is true, as I say, someone in finance needs to have their position reviewed.

Twisty

Ger
I should add, there are accounts which pay more depending on monthly deposits, but even at the low rate of 0.5% that £1.6m would accrue £168,000 over the term.

The reality is that you could earn up to 4 x that amount or more if deposited into a higher rate paying account.

Free money .

Heading out and will catch up later tonight.

saltires voting for Christmas

Bobby

1.6m over 20 years repayable at 6,666.66 Pcm (interest free)

Then we consider the tens of millions of ‘free’ CL money that was offered up to old Rangers- on a plate

Twisty

Saltires
Indeed .

If we did refuse the money we effectively allowed TRFC to double the amount they got free.

Definitely need to move now. Running late

saltires voting for Christmas

Twisty

It’s odd buddy

Hope you are keeping well.

Óglach: Cat 4

Dom frantically trying to find the phone number of the Scots gov loan people as it is being reported Eddy is considering staying at Celtic for at least the next 6 months – which means a free transfer and nae transfer money for Ange, not that he would have seen much of it anyway. With all the nonsense going on a Celtic at the moment I wouldn’t be in the least surprised if there is a bit of substance to the story😮

Le baldy qu’est Jobo

Good morning, friends and a Big Happy Friday from a gloriously sunny, clear skied East Kilbride.

CFC

Twisty and others

Don’t quite follow the logic.
The article isn’t clear.

If , as stated , it was a minimum of 6 clubs that took the available loan , surely the amount Celtic declined would be divided by 6?
Or ,more sinisterly , was Celtic’s a golden share given to one other club specifically?

Billy Bhoy

Oglach

That is not altogether bad news.I’d rather keep Eddy and try for the £40m bounty on offer if we can get through the 3 CLQ matches. We’ve no chance of achieving it without him.

In fact, if we qualify the Board could no doubt still attempt to move him on in a mutually beneficial deal that would help Ange with the massive rebuild required.

Can anybody here bend the ear of JP Taylor and find out if our PLC took up the £1.6m offer?

Twisty

CFC
No idea. My understanding was that a total of £20m was available interest free which when divided by the 12 clubs equates to a max of £1.67m each

If Celtic were the only club to refuse it , there would obviously be £1.67m available to be split between any other clubs looking to borrow extra.

If indeed only 6 clubs took it, which is extremely unlikely ,it frees up a lot more.

Seriously, you’d need to be crazy to turn the money down, so if Celtic did, serious questions would need to be asked. It makes no business sense.

If 6 refused it? Then something would have to be written into the terms of the loan that we don’t know about.

Or perhaps the whole story about us refusing the money is someone with a vivid imagination or is mischief making.

Who knows. I’d love to know the truth though.

The Gombeen Man

The news about Bertie came as a bit of a shock yesterday. I remember him cheering at Hampden after we beat Sevco in the Fraser Forster Final a couple of years ago.

Fingers crossed and prayers said for Bertie and his family & friends.

Dubai Bhoy,

Indeed.

Sorry about that.

I could spoof and claim a typo But that’s not the case.

I was at the match versus Basel in 1974. My first European night and I remember 1980 clearly.

I don’t remember being at the First Round tie versus FK Partizani. But I’ve a recollection of all the fuss about Celtic playing in Albania and difficulty getting Visas.

I was at CP for the Second Round v Dundalk and met one of their goalscorers (Micky Lawlor) years later in Dublin.

The Quarter Final against Real Madrid I won’t forget. I was in the Jungle early and lost my pal during a surge in the crowd.

I can remember watching Laurie Cunningham clearly and Johnny Doyle. Spent the end of the game somehow in the old Rangers End.

The away leg in Madrid, I listened to on the radio…Not sure why?

Anyhow thanks for pointing that out and sorry for any confusion.

I’ve no idea why I forgot about all that. Perhaps you’re right about an agenda. I wouldn’t be human if I didn’t have one?

What I’m really looking at is the UEFA Coefficient System and it’s impact on Celtic without a second Scottish Club delivering points.

Legendary as our performances were. The fact that the system now tots up the points gained by national clubs over a five year period and divides them by the number of clubs participating from that country, must impact on our thinking re-Sevco.

Sevco have 31.250 points. Virtually all of which have been won over the last three seasons.

Season (1) No points ,
Season (2)0.250,
Season(3) 5.000,
Season (4) 11.00,
Season (5) 15.00

In turn, Sevco’s contribution has helped move the standing of the Scottish Association at UEFA to 9th for 2022 from 11th in 2021, on 29 points.

Two CL places and a later entry for the League Champions.

All of this “progress” would be compromised by a financial meltdown at Ibrox.

That doesn’t excuse the annual perceived lack of preparation. But with only one club really contributing points. We seem to be starting earlier against tasty sides before the Transfer Window opens (I know we should be working in advance).

In fairness, BR , NL and Sevco have all contributed to Scotland’s improved standing and requisite number of participants in the CL and stage of joining the competition. Points count the same (more or less) in the CL and EL.

.
The CL is where the money, profile and sponsorship is. On our own, getting there, is proving an ardous task.

It seems we now have to win as many games to qualify for the Group Stages as win it or get to the latter stages back in the good old days.

Tough as it is – Given the inventive financing of Sevco. The dubious history and their recklessness. It’s increasingly difficult to progress in the CL on the back of one Club’s points contribution.

If only we were forthright about these realities. The support are mature enough to deal with it.

Time to get our act together.

“Club coefficients | UEFA Coefficients | UEFA.com” https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/club/#/yr/2021

(Postscript, I’ve just why I listened to the Real game on the ‘wireless’. I checked and found out that the BBC refused to film it, because Real Madrid had advertising on their jersey…I remember now hassle about Clubs displaying too much advertising. Very convenient.)

Sorry for the confusion earlier.

No doubt I’ve added to it here.

The facts are that it’s a different ball game. Much more competition. The more successful the country’s clubs are. The greater the opportunities.

One successful domestic side in Europe makes it very difficult to maintain.

CFC

Twisty

Thanks for the reply
I agree, in business terms it makes no sense to decline such a loan.
The principal still has to be repaid at some unknown point , I assume.

A lot of sound and fury signifying not too much.?

The most the Huns would benefit ( along with the other 5 clubs) in loan terms would be £290,000, from our largesse. A loan , not free money.

They along with the other 5 would , of course, also receive same from 5 other clubs who declined , if the £20m is treated equally.

The Gombeen Man

Emusanorpan,

Thanks for the mention yesterday.

Looking forward to the Scotland game later.

Ronnie Whelan did the Co-Commentary for the Czech game at Hampden for RTÉ.

He kept on calling ‘Scotland’, ‘Celtic’ during the commentary…

“Celtic need to move the ball quicker… Good pressure by Celtic.”

Nobody even corrected him.

Damien Duff was good in the studio too.
He thought the only difference between the sides was a top striker.
He said he knew Dykes from his time in Scotland.

Let’s hope for the best.

Till Later.

Twisty

CFC
Of course the principal sun is repayable , if, you continue to trade. If you go bust, you do not repay it, nor is there any liability on the directors personally. The loan gets written off and the government eat the loss.

Given the uncertainties surrounding some clubs, perhaps all clubs actually, it makes sense to take it.

ATOB IKEA

Billy bhoy,
You can’t honestly be serious about Eddie staying to see out his contract and how this will help us qualify for the CL. This is the same guy who wasn’t fit to play against ferncvaros last year at the same stage and his effort was at the very least questionable for the rest of the season. Imagine what it would be like if he’s protecting himself for a Bosman. He needs to leave and we need to find a buyer willing to give us at least our money back. Another fantastic piece of CEOing from the sharp suited man. NOT.

Big Audio Dynamite

Signed another young striker(18) from Scunthorpe on a 3year deal… Hope he is as good as the last one!

Billy Bhoy

ATOB

Your points are all valid. However, we paid £9m for him and split any profit with PSG. So, the gamble is risk the £3m profit for £40m for CL qualification – and if his goals win us the SPFL another £40m next summer!

I say lets team up Eddy and Griff and blow Sevco away like we’ve done previously. Its our best bet – as opposed to trying to recruit another strikeforce.. The league would be over before they got a chance to gel.

Off out to paint a fence. I’ll catch any replies later.

Maestro Fan

Yes he was. Hiding in plain sight.

BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS

MAESTROFAN

An appalling vista,to quote a very learned gentleman who simply could not countenance an ugly truth.

And in much the same way,we as Celtic fans have to consider our own appalling vista,our own ugly truth. Not a pleasant prospect.

Squire Danaher

The Gombeen Man

Re: Real Madrid away 1980

The second leg had a 5:30 ko CP time.

To be fair BBC Scotland would never had put game on clashing with UK network news. I recall listening to the game with Richard Park on comm for Radio Clyde.

Funny enough no TV coverage two years later when we won in Amsterdam, nor from R Sociedad away in next round.

BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS

GER57

The 0.25% commercial rate is not a factor for the huns. It isn’t like they’re gonna stick it in the bank.

The main factor for them is that it is £1.6m less to ask for at the next whip-round,or the borrowing rates they incur of between 6-10% and more.

auldheid

BMCUW

The co dependency Celtic have with Rangers introduces a moral hazard that I’m not sure many of the dedicated match goers realise.

I dont need to paint an imaginary picture either.

Season 2009 when CL qualification would keep the £36 million debt wolf Rangers invited in during 2008 from the door. An injury hit Celtic beat a ebt debt fuelled Rangers 2 – 0 yet in the run in failed for some reason to take the title. It was 15 March 2009 with not too many league games left. We had failed to sign Steven Fletcher in the January and were left with a clearly unfit JVOH to lead the line.
What I thought unthinkable them (but Aw Naw didnt) was the title was lost not because we were not as good but it was Duffy. The passage of time has made the idea more than sniffy.

10 Aug 2011. The Sherrif Officers turn up at Ibrox to collect tax overdue. I blogged about how come no overdue payable in March became so overdue SOs turned up to collect.

Celtic did write to SFA but I think it was not because Celtic asked wtf but because that blog attracted over 24k views and supporters started to ask questions.

The reply Celic got was shown to requisitioners and I would depict it as ” everything was done properly, our procedures have been verified by UEFA , trust us.

Celtic did until Charlote Fakeover started to leak documents that cast doubt on SFA defense in June 2013 from which Res12 was born.

Celtic’s resistance since leads to what are they trying to avoid coming out?

Roll forward to end of this season and we are tight with Rangers at the top but lose out in run in.

Is that because they are a better football side or is there another solvency factor at play?

Moral hazard big time.

Rebus67

Anyone know where AP is? Is he in the UK in isolation or is he somewhere else?

Rebus

BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS

AULDHEID

As you know,I sometimes get sent info that I cannot publish,other stuff also requires heavy research.

What you refer to as failing the sniff test is frankly becoming an unavoidable and unacceptable truth. And the deeper any of us dig-rather than just guesswork-the bigger that bloody hole becomes.

BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS

REBUS67

AP,the elusive pimpernel!

The Gombeen Man

Squire Danaher,

And the 4-2 game. I’ve seen the black and white pirate coverage that looks like smuggled footage from the Crimean War.

Thank God we’ve moved onto more balanced fair with Sky…(joking).

Love your moniker…

“I’ll join the Church of Ireland.”

“As if they’d have you.”

HH

Rebus67

Let me join the loosy goosy with loans and numbers. If 20 million is available and only 6 clubs take up the 1.6 million per club, that leaves 10.4 million to be distributed amongst the six who took the initial loan. This translates to 1.7 ish million per club extra. Hence, if Sevco took up the extra they would have received a total of 3.3 million, as would the other five clubs. A headline that Hibs received a loan of 3.3 million does not have the same impact as Sevco receiving it! Who knows Celtic may have received this amount.

As someone said, why would any club decline such a deal? Assuming they are not daft, the only explanation is that there is a stipulation in the loan agreement that makes it less attractive.

Frankly, this sounds like a non story.

Rebus

Rebus67

Auldheid,

I think you are doing your daily stretching exercises with that post! Enjoyable read, tho’.

Rebus

The Gombeen Man

Auldheid,

The hope is that Ibrox stabilises and moves from Blue Collared Crime to the favoured subtleties of White Coloured Crime.

Good luck with that.

All it takes is for one of these offshore donations to fall foul of some form of non-Scottish, money laundering investigation and wallop.

The trajectory of improvement is too fast, given they’ve no money.

Off to the beach.

Mike in Toronto

Auldheid

That isn’t the moral hazard you describe … being 40% of the Old Firm, and losing 60% of the time is the legal hazard for getting into bed with bigots and cheats.

The moral hazard for getting into bed with the zombies is spending eternity in the fiery place along side the boys in blue.

Mike in Toronto

A song for the Board …in the words of Satan

Squire Danaher

The Gombeen Man

Cheers, but you should be warned that I need little encouragement to engage in/burst into dialogue…..

auldheid

Rebus

The idea of titles being affected by the financial consequences is one I dismissed as unthinkable in 2009 but as BMCUW says the more you find out the less unthinkable it becomes..

Expressing that thought makes it a stretch for others to consider, something some will avoid because it is an extremely uncomfortable thought to follow through on.

I could have added season 2010/11, the one of honest mistakes that contributed to Rangers winning the title or go bust as they did when having got into the CL qualifying round, Ally blew it.

I have thought since then CL income and being dependent on it for survival creates moral hazard and requires some for of domestic regulation – a version of UEFA FFP tailored to football economics in Scotland.

An alternative that would benefit all premier clubs is a different distribution of CL geld by raising the Solidarity Payments and decreasing the reward to clubs who get into the group stage.

This does two things:
A) it reduces the incentive to act in a reckless financial manner by a club not averse to dodging the rules to get access to it.

B) it strengthens the financial ground of the other 10 clubs and so improves the competition they can offer

That should help reduce any club going through the season with so few points dropped that even a draw can be seen as creating a points gap too wide to recover from. An environment that makes developing young players or giving a new manager time to bed in a non starter..

Then of course there would be nothing to comment about except perhaps just the football, game by game, as opposed to the fears a bad result gives life to.

In my comment Duffy should have read iffy but I was being summoned to perform my taxi role and had no chance to edit and I see I ommited to say the 2 0 in 2009 was the League Cup final won in extra time by a Darren O Dea header and McGeady penalty.

auldheid

MIT

I think this statement explaing what moral hazard is helps clarify my point.

” Definition of ‘Moral Hazard’
Definition: Moral hazard is a situation in which one party gets involved in a risky event knowing that it is protected against the risk and the other party will incur the cost. It arises when both the parties have incomplete information about each other.

Description: In a financial market, there is a risk that the borrower might engage in activities that are undesirable from the lender’s point of view because they make him less likely to pay back a loan.

It occurs when the borrower knows that someone else will pay for the mistake he makes. This in turn gives him the incentive to act in a riskier way. This economic concept is known as moral hazard. ”

I think the last para covers where Celtic now find themselves as result of accepting 5 Way Agreement.

Knowing that Celtic and other clubs are the ones who have to pay for Rangers skullduggery gave Green bargaining power over SPL that without supporters not seeing the moral hazard and telling their Boards Sevco can eff off, would have seen Sevco start in the SPL not 3rd tier SFL.

What signs are there coming from Ibrox that they are no longer willing to play the moral hazard card?

What signs from Celtic they wish to stop the current card game?

Anyone?

bada bing1

Marshall
Hanley
Tierney
McTominay
O’Donnell
McGregor
McGinn
Gilmour
Robertson
Adams
Dykes

Rumoured team

big packy

AFTERNOON ALL and JIM, BRING ON THE ENGLISH, BRING ON THE ENGLISH,,oops didnt notice wee joan was standing right behind me,😎 my mate jim thinks joans the boss, well jim ive got news for you she isnt, no england flags no liverpool flags and certainly no rainjurs flags, she did have a cross of st george flag but ive just finished cleaning my boots with it, those fields are very muddy where i walk the dugs, but the boots came up brand new, cant say much about the flag tho think its irepairably damaged, jim did I spell that right,😎😎 another true story😎

Mike in Toronto

A song for this afternoon (by my aunt’s in-laws)

Craig 76 (3 leopards 🐆 on a shirt )

Hendry better get a game tonight I’ve got him on my coupon to get booked 📔

Craig 76 (3 leopards 🐆 on a shirt )

.

⚡️SCOTLAND THE BRAVE ⚡️ PIPES & DRUMS ( HD )⚡️ / glenzboyz

Craig 76 (3 leopards 🐆 on a shirt )

Leigh Griffith’s 2 stunning free kick goals against England. Joe Hart has a day to forget. / Sports 4-1-1

Legaldo

Afternoon all,

Obviously in a minority here, but Celtic taking a loan, whether it needs to be paid back now, or 20 years, is still a loan.

We have a billionaire major shareholder who could cover this with ease, but we’re all discussing SPL and their distribution tactics.

Sorry, not for me, the emphasis should be on DD and him coughing up !!!!

Did he not finance Brendan after the Scottish Cup debacle !!!

If we “ Need” cash he should be first port of call.

#TinhatonCSC 🍀🍀

Mike in Toronto

Legaldo

Dont think of it as an interest free loan …since this is Scottish football, just call it an EBT… that seems to work.

🙂

saltires voting for Christmas

Craig 76 etc

Great memories of watching those goals with 500 other Celts in Vegas

We all ‘knew’ the second was going in…

Pity that he isn’t in the team tonite!

Scotland the Brave, don't lift ma kilt - Mahe

Up the Hoops.

Happy Friday folks. C’mon Scotland get into them!

‘Last Friday night, yeah we danced on tabletops, then we took too many shots, think we kissed but I forgot, last Friday night’

Gordon64

Declan McConville (@DeclanRMcC) Tweeted: Just got my Celtic voucher through the door https://t.co/af1mOwSQsg https://twitter.com/DeclanRMcC/status/1405515195838078988?s=20

Legaldo

MIIT,

Your right. I’m just an old fashioned guy who has had many loans over all these years, and needed to pay them back. !!!!

What a bummer 👎

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