Not In My Name
Today’s article was intended to make you all jealous of our recent trip to Cologne/Leverkusen,but it can wait. Suffice to say that ACGR’s Hootenanny flag got a few outings again!
Sunday’s performance on the pitch was outstanding,the best I have seen us play for a long time. I doubt that anyone here will disagree. And I’m willing to take the flak for referring to our rivals as the huns as I do this,but our away support detracted from a fantastic performance on the pitch.
I think everyone knows that my background is 50/50 Catholic and Protestant,that I was brought up in Kilwinning. I shared a bedroom with my Papa,born in 1892,until he died in 1974. Silicosis,a wasting disease-bloody hell,he must have been some size of a bloke beforehand!
My pal around that time had a sister,pals with my own sister. Call her H. Their own Papa was the Right Reverend at Kilwinning Abbey. Mine had told everyone that he wanted to be buried by that man,because he had so much respect for him.
Aye,maybe not the thing to say to kids about 6 or 8yo,but respect was the thing,what mattered. And then,H ran down to go out to play and said-Mr P,do you still want to be buried by my Papa,cos yer gonna have to hurry up as he’s retiring soon!
Back then,I knew the songs. Back then,my Dad and his friends made it plain that there was a time and a place. Back then,I was going to the games with my pal,whose background was not mine,whose Papa had come out of retirement to bury mine.
I can honestly say that I’ve never asked anyone their religion,male or female,drinking partner or potential girlfriend. Or their politics either,as neither are important. You find out eventually.
But I knew the songs,wasn’t allowed on the bus unless I knew them!
So that was fifty and forty years ago,and aye,I did know them. Then,about forty years ago I’m giving it big licks in The Jungle,standing alongside the finest bloke I’ve ever met outside of my family,and thought…
Turns out that I’ve actually forgotten a lot of the words to the songs since then,but I can remember the ones that I think are ok. Yes,I’ve decided which songs are fine,and which aren’t. So get me,eh?
Anyone who thought that songbook on Sunday was acceptable needs to have a good look at themselves. Anyone who thought that it wouldn’t be thrown back at us,two cheeks,needs a kick on both of them.
Anyone singing stuff like that insults every single Protestant Man,to quote a song. Insults our famous open to everyone,insults every non-Catholic supporter,whether Jew,Hindu,Moslem.
Kyogo may be Shinto,btw-think of that?! Naw,they only think of the IRA. Tossers.
Celtic are not a sectarian club,nor are our supporters in any way so inclined. Our away support however suggests otherwise. And it needs to be stopped.
Above article by BMCUWP
Here’s a wee song for the GB to learn.
Finally,a sacking offence?
This topic is very multifaceted therefore a dream subject.
There’s the fact dear old mother Ireland has become involved, songs and flags.
In this modern world I’d rather my nations flag wasnt flown to provoke but always flown for pride.
I’m not saying it’s always flown to provoke by the away support,,but having came to and settled in a new land where ‘you’ weren’t always welcome, if those colours are seen as provocative then help your fellow man and your community by not insisting on distinguishing yourselves, but integrate and enhance the receiving community.
When colours, any colours and any flag, are flown with the sole aim of celebration, and not demarking territory or race, then folks shall actually help you celebrate your heritage (think everyone celebrating St Patrick’s Day or Cinco de Mayo).
That’s what flags are for imo. Pride.
Not for profit or provocation.
Maybe it’s just me.
As for some songs, I’m not sure the IRA volunteers would wish those tunes to be used in such a fashion. This was an organization waging a war aimed towards uniting a nation that is very much accepting of all others. Tunes that promote “us and them” aren’t called for right now anywhere but especially in Ireland, with a minority abandoned and unsure which way to turn.
Such songs and add-ons cannot help community relations in Bonnie Scotland.
In my humble opinion, the nation needs to come together for the future’s sake, not retreat into the old clan system.
No more us and them.
Those days are gone.
Independence will affect everyone, and strong community relations are very important because the last thing needed is a split vote along historical Religious lines.
There’s a time and place to sing those songs if you wish to, especially the Rock Bar, Falls Road, West Belfast every Sunday night where it’s an incredible 5 pounds for three WKD’s.
The local community revel in their history together, no confrontation or in your face.
Garry loved the place.
If you’re gonna do it, do it right.
On a different tangent one of the globes biggest carbon capture plants is due to be built in Scotland, it’s a nation with huge potential for wind and wave power.
The globe could really do with a nation that is united in the main, and that embraces fighting climate change.
We really might need it, plus with areas so remote that are prime candidates for Carbon capture plants, helping the world, the nations economy, plus gaining jobs is in everyone’s best interests.
Quelle Mahe they aren’t building that shit in my backyard 😉
Oh yes they are and tbh I’d accept it in my own backyard if it was gonna bail out the planet.
So I would suggest changing the songbook for the benefit of society now, the nation in general, and for future generations.
There are songs everyone accepts, enough songs, and as a matter of fact some that promote national unity, This Land Is Our Land springs to mind.
I Just Can’t Enough is always a joy to hear.
The GB will do their own thing of course, they don’t look like stopping.
But what will stop is the atmosphere should they get the heave ho.
Or choose to leave/stay silent/disrupt match due to Higgins
And that is my biggest concern, it could throw everyone off, and I mean everyone.
BTW I was thinking today about the team yesterday, why where they so obviously fired up?
The league leaders?
I came to the conclusion yes it’s somewhat down to Ange but that they as a collective now smell blood. They know it’s there for the taking.
The upcoming derby is essential watching.
I got a feeling.
There’s no way we roll over.
We go for the kill.
It’s Kyogo we need to keep a lookout for and available, the refs won’t protect him.
The last time I was in The Rock,with the usual crew,I nipped out for a smoke. A young girl asked me to pose for a photo to be taken by her boyfriend,and asked me if I knew Belfast much.
Not really,was the obvious reply. First came here in the late 90s,but that was on the other side. Well,she hit the roof! My argument was and is that you never get anywhere by talking to your friends,only talking to your enemies. And you won’t get anywhere either by winding people up by singing stuff specifically intended for that.
Like you,I am so proud of where we came from,of what our forebears put up with just that we even exist. I will celebrate their achievements every time,in song or thought. But for a buncha wee pricks to use that to taunt people demeans those achievements,those that we celebrate them for.
Hence today’s article-but I’m certainly not the only person with the opinions expressed in it.
How low can a journalist sink? I think we have the answer in that article. He openly admits he did not read the detail of the case and thus missed Arthur’s connection to football. Yet he can criticize an industry that Arthur loved for showing that it cares. His political agenda or prejudice leaks into how he views social awareness and how a caring Society works.
There is a sadness about his inability to understand or feel real compassion. I am not angry after reading his article, rather I feel sorry for anyone who could write that kind of flawed thinking.
Little Arthur stirred more genuine emotion in his short life than this so called journalist will ever achieve with his prejudices. For that he will be remembered long after this article has wasted away in the rubbish dumps of the nation.
I admire your restraint! I’ve always said that I read right-wing publications simply so that I know my enemy,and I’ve been pulled up a few times for posting links to the DM in particular.
This one though,is a new low-even for that rag! I’d like to think that he is working his ticket,fancies a payoff to go away. He’s getting on a bit,after all. That,I could maybe understand,even is his method is abhorrent to any reader.
The truth though is that he wrote the truth as he sees it,as any columnist should. What you have read,what he has written,is actually how he sees things,and what he believes!
Yes,we know there are people like that out there,but to give them a voice,publish on the world’s biggest online media platform,is a step too far.
A good kick up the arse he needs,as the old saying goes. And that everyone now recognises him for the hateful stirrer that he has always been,even as it made him rich.
I had the same conversation with my sister last night about the current songs being sung by certain people, there’s no place for it at CP, particularly songs about the Provisional IRA and the add ons, its embarrassing.
I have English friends who attend every home game and to hear elements rattling on about the English is moronic. As for Protestants, these same fuckwits who sing Republican songs and sing about Protestants in a derogatory way haven’t a clue about Republicanism. Wolfe Tone, William Orr, Napper Tandy and many more individuals were Protestants. You couldn’t make it up.
One of the ditties sung on Sunday had this line in it
“A shower of Scottish bastards we never will forget, thank fuck we’ve got the IRA to shoot the bastards dead” Really? In my opinion, its no different from the nonsense sung by the huns. Time for people to wake up as we’ve loads of great Celtic songs that can be sung. My particular favourite is Piling on the agony, putting on the style, brilliant wee song.
Craig Levein firing shots about the officials and as per usual Radio Shortbread lackeys dismiss his comments.
One decision going in our favour has the whole nest of vipers are spitting and baring their fangs. Brilliant to see and hear.
Succulent lamb on the strap for all of them.
On Saturday evening I was looking for a bottle of wine in a local supermarket when I came across the haunting images of a number of famous Fenian prisoners looking at me from the labels of a new range of Australian wines called 19 Crimes.
The first image that struck me was that of John Boyle O’Reilly…
Others included members of the Catalpa Rescue, like James Wilson and Michael Harrington.
19 Crimes is owned by Treasury Wines Estates, I don’t know much about them.? They’ve hired the US Rapper, Snoop Dogg to front their marketing.
Snoop Dogg, famously declared himself as a Celtic supporter.
Cynical capitalism? Profiteering? Possible Christmas present?
Or maybe an opportunity for a wider audience to get to know what happened in the wake of An Gorta Mór?
With the assistance of an Irish priest in Fremantle, O’Reilly escaped to Boston. He became the editor of the Boston Pilot newspaper and a poet.
Upon his death a huge statue was erected in his memory near Fenway Park.
He could never return to his home in Dowth, County Meath.
His family home in Dowth, is adjacent to the Neolithic Passage tombs, that form part of Brú na Bóinne (Palaces of the Boyne).
Fionn mac Cumhaill (Finn McCool) caught the Salmon of Knowledge in the Boyne near to O’Reilly’s home. Fionn mac Cumhaill, famously led the Na Fianna, in the Fenian Cycle.
The skirmish of 1690 took place in that area too.
I’m not a drinker so I can’t testify to be he qualities of the range? They seem to range between £8-£10.
Anytime I think of the tragic exile of O’Reilly and the Fenians the words of his poem, ‘The Cry of The Dreamer’ comes to mind.
The river he’s referring to is An Bhóinn or the Boyne.
A very sacred place to the Celt.
(There’s a few digs there too for the PLC profiteer too.)
The Cry of the Dreamer.
I am tired of planning and toiling
In the crowded hives of men;
Heart-weary of building and spoiling,
And spoiling and building again.
And I long for the dear old river,
Where I dreamed my youth away;
For a dreamer lives forever,
And a toiler dies in a day.
I am sick of the showy seeming
Of a life that is half a lie;
Of the faces lined with scheming
In the throng that hurries by.
From the sleepless thoughts’ endeavour,
I would go where the children play;
For a dreamer lives forever,
And a thinker dies in a day.
I can feel no pride, but pity
For the burdens the rich endure;
There is nothing sweet in the city
But the patient lives of the poor.
Oh, the little hands too skillful,
And the child-mind choked with weeds!
The daughter’s heart grown willful,
And the father’s heart that bleeds!
No, no! from the street’s rude bustle,
From the trophies of mart and stage,
I would fly to the woods’ low rustle
And the meadows’ kindly page.
Let me dream as of old by the river,
And be loved for the dream alway;
For a dreamer lives forever,
And a toiler dies in a day.
that’s a lovely poem that can definitely be applied to the world we currently inhabit.
If you’re using “labels” like Hun you’re part of the problem too, I’m sorry to say.
Fair play BMCUWPS for your courage and honesty.
This stuff is just part of our conditioning. Nothing to be embarrassed about.
Just seen for what it is and Let Go.
By letting it go you immediately become part of the solution.
(Thanks for the reply Mahe…
It’s a bit of an unfortunate irony that the derogatory word Taig, is closer to the Gaelic, Tadgh. Than the preferred English label of a ‘Tim’).
Have a great day.
John Boyle O’Reilly had a poetic life.
Almost mystical. There’s a tremendous feeling of peace where he was born. There’s carvings 5,000 years old on boulders in the next field.
About 5 miles outside Drogheda.
You want to see the size of the statue in Boston.
Couldn’t believe it when I saw his prisoner’s photo on the bottle.
I hope you’re well Noel & your Dad.
You can walk straight in…The stones are only guarded by sheep.
There’s a statue of O’Reilly in the small graveyard.
St. Patrick would have walked by that site on his way to light the Paschal Fire at Slane to alert the High King in Tara.
I googled the image you mentioned, it’s a work of art itself.
Agree about the songs and time to move on. For some reason the GB can’t do that and there lies the problem.
They do need a good kick up the backside !!!!!
Looks like I picked a nice day to take the wife away for a wee romantic overnight.
Dalmeny Park Hotel. Yes I know it’s in Barrhead !!!!!
Might have to travel to the big smoke of Kilwinning ( 16 miles away) to party this afternoon. Make sure I wear my best green shirt. !!!!!!!! 😜😜😜
HH and Stay Warm 🍀🍀🍀
I know Noel.
Tragic that he couldn’t get back to see it.
Undone by informers before the Rebellion got off the ground.
They were all in the British Military, so we’re convicted of Treason. Usually got sentenced to death but we’re transported to Australia.
O’Reilly was involved in the planning of the Catalpa Rescue after he made it to Boston.
Not criminals at all.
I could say that I can’t change habits even if I want to,but as I mentioned abovr,I did so 40 years ago,and many times since. I accept your point though,and am definitely more restrained in my language than I used to be-believe it or not!
When I lived back home,end of the 90s,I was getting the usual stick from my hun mates. Advocaat had begun steamrollering us. I told my wee pal,long dead now sadly,to
“Shut it,ya Orange bastert!”
I know,I’m a master of witty repartee and the satirical reply(!)
Well,I expected a reaction,but to be told that he wasn’t an orange bastert,but a loyalist one really confused me. Still does…
great article. I too am sick of their songs. We have loads of Celtic songs to sing but that is what they choose to sing! The club also don’t do enough. They need to put out clear guidance of what cannot be sung. Start with the list of specific songs and then continue with sing that include ???
If that doesn’t work then do what someone recently suggested and say if these songs are sung then the club will take 10% less tickets for next away game and so on rising to 20% then 30%.
Also. Get Police Scotland to APPLY THE LAW. Whilst the songs which were sung were not illegal – sectarian. The fat orange B is. So if police Scotland arrest two people every time a sectarian song is sung I think it would soon stop. Obviously I’m expecting them to do the same in Govan though.
As John Reid said – we need to be whiter than white and I agree with him. No point me standing on my moral high ground when my pals say but you are both the same!
TGM: Every time you relate ‘. a wee tale ‘ of long ago, it reminds me of the great time we spent in your area and your extensive knowledge of it
Keep them coming
The wine is excellent and I’ve drank it a few times…never knew they were real men, thought publicity photos
Will take a photo next time I’m in
Wine too dear for normal consumption 😀
It’s these ‘labels’ like Tim & Taig (pardon the pun) that imprisons us.
Because we are conditioned to the core of our Being we’re very easily manipulated and rarely see the truth.
After 25 years + here, it’s a bit of a shock to find out that the other side often had and have a point.
Dropping them for me began to open things up.
Much like the old racial and gender stereotypes that we grew up with and were never questioned.
Speaking generally not personally.
The solution lies in the mainstream support seeing the truth and dropping the old stereotypes.
Intervention by Police Scotland is likely to be counterproductive.
Self awareness and education are my preference.
We just can’t have a hierarchy of acceptable insults like Hun/Orange this and that, and then come down like a ton of bricks, if someone sings something that offends our conditioning.
Day after day on numerous Blogs you’ll read comments by professional people about Huns.
We can’t be surprised if that atmosphere ferments songs that we’d rather not hear.
We can’t pin this just on the young singing their songs, when we’re all part of the Old Firm, sectarian issue.
The PLC know this of course, it’s profitable.
It Old Firmisim.
That’s why the young team get the tickets for away matches.
The racket is good for the cameras.
Apologies for the rant.
Heading out now.
Yes, you left your mark on the Emerald Isle and you’ve both been to that Sacred Place.
On Good Friday of course – of the Centenary of the Easter Rising.
Maybe Santa will bring you with a few bottles?
I don’t know if I approve of the wine or not but thought I’d let folk decide for themselves.
Take care, P.
I was over last week. E, brought me to the Hearts game.
Dalmeny Park,at the top of the hill on the way in from Kilwinning/Irvine? Enjoy,but don’t go to the nearest pub,The Arthurlie. Might not be pretty,and the clientele certainly won’t be!
Yep that seems to be the one.
Noted re The Arthurlie. Give it a miss methinks 👍
Wehad a terrific time,both social and educational,and are suitably grateful,with the photos stored on our phones. Hope E is still enjoying life up there,probably fighting them off wi a shitty stick!
I too am sick of being lumped in with them as two cheeks of the same arse. I have a broad mix of friends and trying to explain why singing IRA songs is acceptable is really a forlorn argument because it is so difficult to defend. People who sing them say it’s part of our culture. It may be for some but it’s not for everyone so why sing them. Celtic is our Culture so let’s sing Celtic songs. We’ve got plenty.
As for the word Huns, I have spoken about this before. For me hun is a mindset. It is someone who thinks they are superior to us Celtic supporters because of what we are and where they think we’ve come from. Not where we are or where we are going – it’s where we come from. Everyone knows them. In my experience they have no interest in football outside of “the Rangers.” They like to let me know that I am inferior to them despite the fact that they have no reason to feel
This. At least three good Celtic supporters known to me personally became supporters of our club because of Huns in their own family. They just knew they didn’t want to be like that. Now I could just refer to this collective as pr*cks or b*st*rds but they all have that ibrox club in common and that’s why they’re all huns to me. Maybe TGM does not have to live among these people I speak of and has less need to turn the other cheek but I assure you if I turned the other cheek every time where I live my head would be spinning so much it would drop off.
Turning the other cheek only offers them another target,so defo not for me.
Very good 👍
She has a way with words,and believe me when I say I’ve been on the wrong end of a few!
Regarding the songs, it would be safe to say the majority on here think it’s time to stop singing them in the ground. The problem we have is until the supporters start making it clear there not wanted when they start up they will keep singing them. Drown them out with Celtic songs each and every time they start
I don’t have any religion. And I don’t care about anyone else’s. I detest huns, not Protestants or people of any other religion. It’s not anyone’s religious beliefs I find offensive, it’s their ubermensch worldview. It’s the same reason I detest Desmond, Lawwell and Bankier. They really are hun-like in temperament.
The problem is that it’s a generalisation.
It’s used in reference to everyone who supports Rangers. It’s lazy and a vital cog in the sectarian Old Firm mindset.
Forget the rationalisations and justifications for the use of the Labels and consider the their impact.
Much the same as the term Taig represented thick, inbred, Paddys.
The N word represented abhorrent stereotypes of black people.
Same with Asians, Travellers , Gender bias and all other false generalised stereotypes.
We all know that these terms were/are lies.
As long as this and similar terms are used we’ll remain in slavery.
It’s just a symptom of the divide and conquer trap.
Scotland is a post colonial society. Divided and dominated by carefully crafted stereotypes.
Stop falling into the trap.
We need to be very honest about why these words, their false basis and the cycle of sectarian damage that inevitably ensues.
The simplest way is to let go of any tradition, belief system, party affiliation and preferences.
From there, there’s an open honest dialogue.
Everyone is given the space to hear and listen to each other and examine their learned and conditioned prejudices.
John Reid was wrong.
We don’t need to be whiter than white.
That implies a them and us.
There is no them and us.
Them and us is a consciously created illusion.
The conscious use of Hun and similar terms, while condemning IRA songs won’t get us anywhere.
We can’t be self-righteous and palm all of the problem off elsewhere.
The problem and the solution lies with us all.
We can’t just say ‘Im justified in the use of my language.’ And then point the finger at something that rattles with our own prejudices or conditioning.
“John Reid was wrong.
We don’t need to be whiter than white.
That implies a them and us.
There is no them and us.”
I respectfully disagree. There is indeed a them and us,and it flourishes everywhere in Scottish society. We can try to be whiter than white,to acknowledge what is right,what is wrong,to self-police. To fight against it too. But while we are treated differently,there will never be progress.
And we are treated differently,let no-one be in any doubt about that.
My background is similar to your BMCUW although from Glasgow’s Calton.
Street football is where both sides of the divide mixed and made friends. It was those friends who pulled me into the St Enoch Underground queue away back when and we carried on the journey to Ibrox as pals, trying to rip the piss which was a congenital disease of the time and still is for Glaswegians.
We parted company at Ibrox and as I stood facing the Rangers support from the Celtic end the songs of hate began from both sides. At some point I stopped and thought this is daft, I don’t hate my pals (I still remember them fondly) and I made a decision then about who I want to be (or try to be). I can count on one hand the number of Celtic v Rangers matches I’ve attended. Still love to beat them of course as it keeps them quiet and stops riots but I feel pity for folk who go through life wearing blinkers when without them life is so much more pleasant.
My dad’s boast was I played for the Catholics (St Mungo’s) in the morning and Rangers (St James’s Calton) in the afternoon. The guy who ran the latter just wanted us in his team after a makeshift team from the Well St “brokie” hammered them. Football can be the glue that brings communities together, but there is not so much money to be made in that territory. Sectarianism sells.
I go along with ATOB’s view that the word “hun” depicts a particular type of behaviour and it surfaces up and down the social spectrum but I try to avoid using it, even if I think it when I meet one.
For me the GB do not perform for the rest of the support, they perform for themselves, I base that on listening to them justify their cause, but I’ll bet they tell themselves its all for love of Celtic. I think we all do but it depends on what meaning we give to love.
Richard Littlejohn on fans clapping for Wee Arthur: “Just so they can feel good about themselves”.
What a scandalous thing to say. Joining in a small gesture of love and respect for the wee fella will never make the pain go away that we all felt for him. There is nothing that could me/us feel better.
The Gombeen Man
The problem is t
We can’t be self-righteous and palm all of the problem off elsewhere.
The problem and the solution lies with us all.
The problem and the solution lies withIN us all, it is a choice of who we want to be as you know..
On how the terms is applied as ATOB says it refers to behaviour, when I come across it I don’t think it in terms of anything other than the behaviour although it mostly but not exclusively, applies to folk who follow Rangers.
I don’t hate whoever is displaying it, usually shake my head and make a note to part company asap.
What is this “We” you speak of?
Treated differently by Who?
The Board? Major Shareholders? Labour Party? SNP? Tories? Catholic Church? Police Scotland? Courts? Media? SPFL? SFA?
It seems to me this different treatment is very good business for the PLC.
Drop any notion of We…
It’s an illusion born out of a primeval drive for Security.
It can’t deliver any lasting happiness.
Hi Mick . I had a wee rant this morning concerning our songbook on Sunday on the boozers what’s app thread.
One dude then told that he’d difficulty explaining the roamin in the gloamin ditty .
He’s old enough to remember it .
His 21 year old daughter, who attends university , is a Protestant, who is a Celtic fanatic, attends weekly , didn’t get it .
It’s a Hunnish song . End of.
I’m going to avoid using the term hun after this post. I never used it for most of my life, it became a norm to me when I started using alternatives to the word Rangers (post 2012) on social media. Rangers died.
The morons who sing these songs should be identified and have their season tickets torn up. I understand we were founded by Irish men but we’re a Scottish club and we welcome all supporters regardless of religion or ethnicity but some will always have to shame our club by spouting their spurious bile. How can we call out the sevco support when there’s a shameful element in ours too? Now thankfully in our support it is a minority but it debases all the other supporters by association and I’m sick of it and most of our support are too. We can’t claim any moral high ground when our own support has elements like this in it but more than that it’s about human decency and respect. Our club started with charitable ideals to feed the poor children of Calton and surrounding areas and it’s a noble ethos that’s still part of the club today whilst the Ibrox club started from an elitist and superiority ethos but also one of exclusion to all but Protestants and its always been to their detriment in my opinion. Their support have real problems with the majority wearing their sectarianism and racism like a badge of honour. There’s a section of our support like that too and they need to be weeded out or re-educate themselves that they’re a blight on the club’s good name. I don’t see anything improving in my lifetime nor indeed anytime soon as there has to be a want for this to happen but if you look at the Ibrox club’s forums it’s not going to ever happen some of the stuff on there is unbelievable. I wish I had an answer but my wee brain is too small for a problem this large. My hope is that this element of our support takes heed of the damage that this causes us as a club but more importantly as human beings.
I first wrote this in 2009 then added a further point more recently. It has the grand title.
How To Tell If a Song Is Sectarian
The following was posted in 2009 when the then description of the day for offensive songs was sectarian. That has been overtaken by racist in the context that not only do the songs in question relate to religion in Scotland but also to race in the terms of being anti Irish.
The definition of racism is
Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
From which it can be seen why UEFA deem songs like The Billy Boys to be racist. With that update in mind the following was offered in 2009 as a means of setting criteria for what was sectarian although the criteria can apply to both brands of hate.
Written by Auldheid
Saturday, 21 February 2009
Every now and then a songs debate flares up in Celtic Cyberspace and the one thing you can be sure of is no agreement will emerge. This will always be so unless there is a set of criteria to go by.
Examining The Billy Boys offers one set of criteria for a sectarian/racist song in that the words “up to our knees in Fenian blood” offers violence to a person of an identifiable religious faith either directly or in this case by inference, Fenian = Catholic.
If you take the Soldiers Song or The Fields that are deemed acceptable by Celtic if I understand it correctly. The thing about these songs is that they are “inward aimed” or “centred on self” celebrating that sense of self.
Sectarianism is defined as ” bigotry, discrimination, prejudice or hatred arising from attaching importance to perceived differences between subdivisions within a group, such as between different denominations of a religion or the factions of a political movement.
The key words are sub divisions WITHIN a group. The group involved with The Fields or Soldiers is a single group where no sub division exists.
For a song to be sectarian it has to project OUTWARD from that group ideas or beliefs that the group wish to impose on others or to express distaste or hatred for those OUTSIDE the group.
The key words are inward celebration and outward projection. The first cannot by definition be sectarian but the latter depending on the words can.
So why not use those criteria to at least draw a line?
Now on what is objectionable to others: songs that are inward celebrating might cause offence to others but they are the ones taking offence, it is not being offered to or aimed at them. It is something intolerant in them that sparks the offence taken. If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, why not offence? We as Celtic supporters are not responsible if others take offence at our songs of inward celebration. It is only when outward projection as in say add ons occurs that a charge of sectarianism might apply.
These criteria would apply to Rangers songs as well as our own.
This debate has been going on for ever. You would think someone would have penned official criteria from usage by now to give guidance to the support.
Note criteria is NOT a song list. Folk can use the criteria to look at what they sing and maybe think about why they are singing what they are. Inward celebration of belief/faith/culture/tradition or outward projection of those things on to others.
Question the motivation, using the criteria not the words and decide the intent of what is sung.
If abusive justify it to yourself without using whataboutery.
Early 80s,The Devil’s Elbow was a meet-up point for me and SOLKITTS,he would sometimes be late getting to Queen St from Embra. I was sitting at a table waiting for him prior to a visit to Ibrox when four Rangers fans asked if they could sit there. Not a problem,and we got on famously.
But time was marching,and it looked like I had overstayed my welcome if I wanted to get to the game by the usual Timmybus route! So they suggested jumping on the subway at Buchanan St,as they were heading anyway.
Interesting trip,I was the only person not singing. Although I was foot-tapping away to some of the tunes,as we have our own lyrics to them!
It is a disgrace. It should never be sung,a total embarrassment.
Surely those in positions of power at our club, sitting in directors boxes up and down the country, are totally embarrassed about these songs, surely! It IS within their remit to end this, I know the arguments are that they want to keep this going as it’s a moneymaker, but that is just hogwash. It’s time now to do something. Let’s all email them to express our disgust. Perhaps some on here, with the capability, can make a template of an email for us to forward to the board. This has to end and we have to put the end game in motion, NOW! por cierto.
St Paul sums it up for me,
“Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law” (Rm 13:8-9).
I know that for every Biblical quote there’s another that’ll contradict.
Engagement with the Inward v Outward dichotomy is fraught with confusion and distortion.
In addition that sense of Self is very much an illusion, a product of conditioning.
Back to the Workhouse.
I think there is a growing feeling that it is wrong,or alternatively it may be that we are getting older,wiser,while the youngsters are just doing what we did!
As I said in the article,I have my own ideas on which songs are acceptable,get me,and they are the ones of celebration and commemoration of those who fought. I don’t think they fought against,or hated,Protestants. Maybe the 21st Century hasn’t just left the huns behind,it is dragging many of us down too.
THEGOMBEENMAN and COSYCORNERBHOY referred to a trip about five years ago,which included a tour of The Boyne,etc.That was a pivotal moment in British politics,and in Irish politics too. But it continues to wreck Scottish society.
Acceptable songs? Here’s a post I made on the other channel back in 2017, referring to our title winning game in 2012…
JOBO BALDIE on 12TH AUGUST 2017 9:45 AM
The good old days? Just over 5 years ago, 7th April 2012 and it was KIlmarnock 0 Celtic 6 as we won the league title. Our songbook [all 115 tracks 😉 ] that day –
1 ~ 0.00 ~ Hail, Hail, The Celts Are Here
2 ~ 0.48 ~ Just Can’t Get Enough
3 ~ 2.05 ~ Toy Town
4 ~ 2.55 ~ This Land Is Our Land
5 ~ 3.42 ~ Glasgow Celtic Champions (oh oh oh oh oh oh oh)
6 ~ 4.33 ~ The Celtic Symphony
7 ~ 5.55 ~ Having A Party (when Rangers die)
8 ~ 6.18 ~ Ooh Aah Samaras
9 ~ 6.51 ~ Ki, Ki, Ki, Ki
10 ~ 7.00 ~ Toy Town
~ 7.08 ~ GOAL!!!!! MULGREW
11 ~ 7.55 ~ Glasgow Celtic Champions (oh oh oh oh oh oh oh)
12 ~ 8.35 ~ Glasgow Celtic Champions (oh oh oh oh oh oh oh)
13 ~ 9.40 ~ We’ve won the league again (fly the flag)
14 ~ 10.30 ~ We’re Only Here For The Party
15 ~ 11.43 ~ Just Can’t Get Enough
16 ~ 12.48 ~ The Lonesome Boatman
17 ~ 13.35 ~ One Neil Lennon
18 ~ 14.04 ~ We’ve won the league again (fly the flag)
19 ~ 14.53 ~ The Huns Are Going Bust
~ 15.58 ~ GOAL!!!!! LOOVENS
20 ~ 16.38 ~ Glasgow Celtic Champions (oh oh oh oh oh oh oh)
21 ~ 16.51 ~ Championees, championees
22 ~ 17.21 ~ Burley, Burley, what’s the score
23 ~ 17.29 ~ Let’s All Do The Huddle
24 ~ 18.14 ~ Craig Burley, you’re a….
25 ~ 18.55 ~ One Stan Petrov
26 ~ 20.08 ~ Ole! Ole!….
27 ~ 20.41 ~ This Land Is Our Land
28 ~ 21.43 ~ Broonie…Broonie
29 ~ 22.17 ~ Doing The Broonie when Rangers die
30 ~ 23.26 ~ Oh the Rangers are sh….
31 ~ 23.48 ~ Hey, oh oh, hey hey, oh oh oh
32 ~ 25.01 ~ In The Heat Of Lisbon
33 ~ 25.38 ~ Super Joe Ledley
34 ~ 26.12 ~ Na Na Na Na Na Na Na Na Hey Hey Hey Glasgow Celtic
35 ~ 26.54 ~ Toy Town
36 ~ 27.36 ~ Ki, Ki, Ki, Ki
37 ~ 28.30 ~ Roll Of Honour
38 ~ 30.45 ~ One Neil Lennon
39 ~ 31.30 ~ Over and Over
40 ~ 32.50 ~ The Celtic Symphony
~ 34.01 ~ GOAL!!!!! MULGREW
41 ~ 34.50 ~ Toy Town
42 ~ 36.03 ~ Championees, championees
43 ~ 36.40 ~ Craig Burley, you’re a….
44 ~ 36.55 ~ The Charlie Mulgrew Song
45 ~ 37.13 ~ Oh oh oh oh oh, oh oh oh oh oh… (ray, do, ray, mi, fa…fa, mi, ray, do, ray)
46 ~ 38.19 ~ Broonie…Broonie
47 ~ 38.41 ~ Glasgow Celtic Champions (oh oh oh oh oh oh oh)
48 ~ 38.54 ~ Ole! Ole!….
49 ~ 39.23 ~ Having A Party (when Rangers die)
50 ~ 39.55 ~ Glasgow’s Green & White (for 2min 40secs)
51 ~ 42.49 ~ Glasgow Celtic Champions (oh oh oh oh oh oh oh)
52 ~ 43.10 ~ We’ve won the league again (fly the flag)
53 ~ 43.43 ~ No Huns In Scotland!
54 ~ 44.15 ~ Rangers Till July!
~ 44.37 ~ GOAL!!!!! HOOPER
55 ~ 45.23 ~ We Can See You (sneaking out)
56 ~ 45.50 ~ Toy Town
57 ~ 45.00 ~ You’ll Never Walk Alone
58 ~ 45.35 ~ Craig Burley, you’re a…
59 ~ 46.15 ~ Victor Wanyama Song
60 ~ 46.41 ~ We’re Only Here For The Party
~ 47.05 ~ SUBSTITUTION – Twardzik for Brown: Captain’s armband to Samaras
61 ~ 47.08 ~ Broonie…Broonie
62 ~ 47.38 ~ Doing The Broonie when Rangers die
63 ~ 48.29 ~ Super Joe Ledley
64 ~ 48.52 ~ Fields Of Athenry
65 ~ 49.58 ~ What’s That Coming Over The Hill, Is It The Taxman?
66 ~ 51.13 ~ Bring on the Hearts, the Hibs, the Rangers
67 ~ 51.39 ~ Sebo, Sebo…(directed at Mulgrew!)
68 ~ 51.59 ~ Rangers Till July!
69 ~ 52.35 ~ Ha ha, ha ha (to the tune of ‘The Billy Boys’)
70 ~ 53.01 ~ Sebo, Sebo…(directed at Kelly of Kilmarnock)
71 ~ 53.44 ~ There’s only one Craig Whyte
72 ~ 54.22 ~ Craig Whyte’s Fenian Army
73 ~ 54.48 ~ Craigy Whyte, Craigy Whyte, Craigy Craigy Whyte (to the tune of ‘Give It Up’)
74 ~ 55.56 ~ Toy Town
75 ~ 56.40 ~ One Neil Lennon
76 ~ 57.20 ~ One Alan Thompson
77 ~ 57.52 ~ Johan Mjallby, Johan Mjallby
78 ~ 59.45 ~ Tommy Burns, Tommy Burns, Tommy Burns
79 ~ 60.34 ~ Jimmy Johnstone (on the wing)
80 ~ 61.18 ~ Willy Maley Song
81 ~ 62.12 ~ Willy Maley Song
82 ~ 63.20 ~ Artur Boruc Song
83 ~ 64.20 ~ You Are My Larsson
84 ~ 65.37 ~ Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life
85 ~ 66.30 ~ The Boys Of The Old Brigade
86 ~ 67.40 ~ Ooh Aah Samaras
87 ~ 67.52 ~ Toy Town
~ 68.13 ~ SUBSTITUTION – Stokes for Samaras : Captain’s armband to Mulgrew
88 ~ 68.45 ~ Tony, Tony Stokes Song
89 ~ 69.07 ~ We’ve won the league again (fly the flag)
90 ~ 69.58 ~ Championees, championees
91 ~ 70.31 ~ Passing The Trophy (when Rangers die)
92 ~ 71.55 ~ Stand Up For The Champions
93 ~ 72.09 ~ Doing A Huddle (when Rangers die)
94 ~ 73.10 ~ Doing The Conga (when Rangers die)
95 ~ 74.39 ~ We Shall Not Be Moved
96 ~ 75.23 ~ Championees, championees
~ 75.47 ~ SUBSTITUTION – Blackman for Mulgrew : Captain’s armband to Ledley
97 ~ 76.30 ~ Come On Over To My Place (we’re having a party)
98 ~ 77.31 ~ Glasgow Celtic Champions (oh oh oh oh oh oh oh)
99 ~ 77.55 ~ Super Joe Ledley
100 ~ 78.25 ~ Just Can’t Get Enough
101 ~ 79.00 ~ Ooh Ahh Gary Hooper
102 ~ 79.51 ~ Craig Burley, you’re a….
103 ~ 80.20 ~ Hail, Hail, The Celts Are Here
104 ~ 81.27 ~ Aiden McAnespie
105 ~ 82.50 ~ The Celtic Symphony
106 ~ 84.30 ~ Na, na, na na na na na Celtic (to the tune of ‘Hey Jude’)
107 ~ 84.50 ~ Over and Over
108 ~ 85.13 ~ Jock Stein!
109 ~ 85.41 ~ Championees, championees
110 ~ 86.25 ~ Do, do do do, Nakamura
111 ~ 87.15 ~ Hey, oh oh, hey hey, oh oh oh
~ 87.39 ~ GOAL!!!!! LEDLEY
112 ~ 88.08 ~ Super Joe Ledley
113 ~ 88.43 ~ Toy Town
~ 89.04 ~ GOAL!!!!! HOOPER
114 ~ 89.28 ~ Toy Town
115 ~ 90.20 ~ Ooh Ahh Gary Hooper
~ 92.11 ~ FULL TIME : GLASGOW CELTIC CHAMPIONS!!!
Please forgive the intrusion and hypocrisy in returning after I had previously said I wouldn’t but some things just need to be got off the old chest.
Ahh the old songbook conundrum. A bunch of middle-aged middle-class men telling youngsters they aren’t singing ‘in their name’. The fact is they really CGAF what you or anyone else thinks and why the feck should they? You represent Celtic as much as they do – an irrefutable fact if you accept that we, as a support, are a broad church. Now if you don’t like their songs out sing them FFS – stop yer tut-tutting and head shaking and do something about it. Why not go and ask the Celtic board what songs are acceptable as someone here suggested – that is before also suggesting that the Police arrest those Celts who sing the songs they don’t like. Yes, an alleged Celtic supporter made these suggestions – NOT IN MY NAME indeed?
Perhaps the young Celtic support is more politically astute than any of you give them credence for, a lot of assumptions being made about their knowledge of Irish political history also. I’d say in the main it is good as if not far superior to any of the hand wringing lynch mob on here and that they are fully cognizant that the fathers of modern Irish republicanism were in the main Protestants. Perhaps they, the young team, see what is happening on the streets in Scotland, more Orange order parades in Scotland each year than are held in the North of Ireland. Anti-Irish Anti Catholic bile is allowed while Police Scotland stand by and in some instances facilitate the very mass gatherings where these hate crimes are openly allowed and Scottish politicians do nothing but make mealy-mouthed platitudes, the very same Police force some in our support want to get stuck into the young team for singing songs they don’t like BTW. Perhaps the young team is venting their frustrations in the only public arena they have? I see no other reason for the ‘reintroduction’ of Romin’ in the Gloaming and similar numbers to the song sheet. It is, IMO, a very public Feck you to the Scottish authorities
Yesterday marked the Centenary of the signing of the Anglo-Irish peace treaty. And lest ye forget the following 100 years have produced some of the bloodiest in Ireland’s long sad history, yet still part of Ireland remains under military occupation 100 years on. The Irish diaspora remembering those who have fought and died for equality and justice for all of Ireland’s children in song should not be criticised just because someone’s English friends might be offended, least of all they should not be condemned for singing such songs in an edifice and institution built by the Irish diaspora in Scotland, a community who have always played a significant part in Ireland’s struggle for freedom
“The financial contribution to the Irish struggle from among the Scottish communities was in excess of funds from any other country, including Ireland.” Eamon De Valera
A wee book that may interest and educate some of you ” We will rise again’ Ireland, Scotland and the Easter rising
Good afternoon all from Morrisons car park.
BRRB, Morrison’s car park? LOL 🙂 So your chores aren’t over yet? 🙂
The Gombeen man
I disagree about a them and us.
As someone who has lived and worked all my life in the Glasgow area, I can assure you that the them and us still exists now as it did when I worked and served my apprenticeship in Yarrows from 1976 – 87
I managed to get a job in a Glasgow brewery, by changing the name of the school I went to . It actually wasn’t just as bad as the shipyards, but the them and us attitude was still there.
I then left there and moved a mile along the road to a bakery, which was like going back to the yards and back in time. I had to stop working in 2017 , due to ill health and can honestly say I don’t miss having to work with the neanderthals, from the factory manager to the shop floor guys.