The CST

I’ve looked at the responses to The Loss of Trust in The Celtic Trust blog by CST member Chris McGachy and his later blog that gives an account of what happened at the CST AGM.

What I’m looking at are the thoughts behind the comments with the idea that if anything is going to change in terms of the relationship between the Celtic Board , supporters and small shareholders then we supporters/shareholders and Board need to think again about improving transparency and accountability as a collective.

The comments were very useful, and they can be viewed from a link to it followed by my “thinking again” comments. I apologise in advance if my comments do not reflect the tone and spirit in which they were e offered, which is not to criticise or confront but simply to have folk thinking about what they are thinking. This is just the first of several blogs into June to build something concrete based on new thinking.

First, because it is a core issue, was inspired by the comment by Tom Minogue that takes us back to the time the Trust was created. Tom’s comment can be read in full at https://sentinelcelts.com/2022/05/17/loss-of-trust-in-the-celtic-trust/#comment-216188

I have picked out parts I wanted to comment on from each response to Chris McGachy.

Tom Minogue.

These caught my eye “ Back in the day I was enthused with the idea of the fans having a representative and a voice.” That thinking applies still but the question has to be is share accumulation the way to go about it? If the figured in the blogs on CST are anything to go by it is a futile path to tread.  Tom went on to say “ I am truly at a loss to understand the failure of the Trust to take off big time” and my thinking is it is because of two things:

1. by its very nature and unintentionally the CST does not speak for all Celtic supporters, it has nothing to offer the other vital constituency the Celtic supporters who pay to watch games whether Season Tick holder or intermittent attendee.

2. Lack of reach as in finding that wide body in order to enable them to have a say on some of the key issueswhich impacts on their enjoyment of following Celtic..

Finally Tom said “ The Bulkshareholder lists now only give names so this will make the task of mailing harder and emailing would be the way to go”.

3. It is the only way to go, once known then it will be much easier to communicate with small shareholders and ticket holders alike and gathering contact details has to be a priority. However they need to be given a good reason to get involved. That means providing the Celtic diaspora something every person in that wide spectrum will want to be participate in AND the means of doing so at no great effort on their part. What this might be and how this might be done to address the points at 1 and 2 will emerge later. 

SeS 
This contribution by SeS at https://sentinelcelts.com/2022/05/17/loss-of-trust-in-the-celtic-trust/#comment-216181  sets out the challenges to be faced and I’ll try to pick my way through them.

SeS asks “ However, you would do your cause a huge service if you could begin by pointing directly to a time or example, where this model/the one you envisage – worked effectively in any context, but preferably in a football/soccer context?” 

I don’t think there is a model that reflects the uniqueness of The Celtic Support so one needs to be built, but rather than take an  all or nothing approach , a protype gets built first using existing technology at low or no cost to make the current AGM process of engagement with the Board work more quickly for all including The Board..

The protype would aim to address the factors you raisedwhich I’ll summarise as:

1. Dividing and manipulating small shareholders mainly because it will not just be the current limited numbers that are  the audience.

2. On the basis of the success of the protype which will be measurable, future funding would be donation led to let the prototype take off as a permanent feature. Specific funds for a specific task should deter the grifters and schemers. 

3. Which is a biggie because it is so fundamental: the aim of the protype will be to change hearts and minds of ALLreaders in order to secure votes or better remove the need to call for votes at all.  The motivation behind any issue raised is for the sole  intention of the betterment of Celtic as a whole. Fighting funds should not be needed , conflict, which has been a feature of past AGMs gets replaced with cooperation and dialogue not necessarily tied to the AGM timetable but ongoing with an AGM resolution being the result if no meeting of hearts and minds.

4. By involving ST and match day goers in the prototype process from the beginning and making a case for change that they would support they bring the implicit cash threat their numbers carry to the table. Thus Celtic are given the incentive to address legitimate concerns rather than pay lip service to seeking solutions.

CFC

CFC’s  useful comments can be read at  https://sentinelcelts.com/2022/05/17/loss-of-trust-in-the-celtic-trust/#comment-216187   Because they are short I can use rather than summarise to respond to.

“ For a membership scheme to have any traction, some key questions need to be clarified for me. What are its aims? 
The protype I have referred to is not a Membership Scheme as such but might become one. it would exist to provide a platform for shareholders and ST Holders/match day goers/Celtic TV contributors to influence the policies The Celtic Board are perceived to have adopted in the absence of knowing what those policies actually are and why. It would be so much easier to question if Celtic were to state their purpose and how the policies, they are pursuing align with that purpose in order to provide total alignment between Board and support.

How is it constituted?”

The prototype would stand or fall on its merit/success. A statement of purpose should avoid the need for a constitution other than perhaps terms for a small management Board and paid administrator from Donations to enable the purpose to be met. 

In whose interests does it act? EVERYBODY! Large shareholder/small shareholder/ST Holder/ Irregular Match Day goer. Internet bampots anyone who pays to watch Celtic play.

To whom is it accountable? EVERBODY. It will be judged on its success and donation dependent on that success. Perhaps an end of year report on its activities.

Mahe
Mahe said at https://sentinelcelts.com/2022/05/17/loss-of-trust-in-the-celtic-trust/#comment-216204

“In order to mould the Trust into what is needed or hoped for, it’s important to use the existing mechanisms for change given to the bodies members, to test those very mechanisms. It’s important to know they work, and this occasion presents a great opportunity to restore faith in the bodies articles of constitution, while showing it’s membership it can be democratic and capable of change. “

Chris’s blog re Loss of Trust in CST and the Trustee’s response to it set out in his follow up blog of 4 Junesuggests  the CST is not for moving and in many ways are hidebound by their very constitution. 

However that does not mean abandoning the route to accountability they use which is via Resolutions to AGMS, but adapting that process to widen its reach beyond shareholders,  is easy to use  and remains topical throughout the year and not an annual event. So a new approach is required starting with the green field question “What was the ultimate aim of creating the CST in the past and is there another way to achieve that aim? Gaining shares to win votes was not an end in itself but a means to an end.

Mahe said “ It’s equally important for those being asked to step aside to do so without malice” (and more). 
Absolutely. The relationship over the years between the CST and Board has been based more on conflict than consensus on both sides, one feeding the other toa broth of mistrust. It is unhealthy for the holistic Celtic body and spirit and has to change. 

Any initiative should be  all about the future holistic well being of Celtic and not a venue for turf wars. Celtic of course would benefit from sharing their vision of what constitutes the future holistic wellbeing of the club . This would make it so much easier for alignment to occur between the Board and the support at large. Trust building steps are needed.

Mahe said “ A sliding scale of dues to become a member, for instance the elderly and unemployed asked for a token sum in order to join, such as ten pounds per annum.” 

Whilst a subscription method of funding might emerge, funders will want to know in advance what they are being asked to fund. That suggests a donations model to support  any initiative that the supporter base as a whole are prepared to buy into because the initiative is one they agree with. That requires an initiative and purpose to be stated and if funding is needed, seek it on the merit of the initiative.

Mahe said “ A sub committee (be) formed to increase membership numbers. They would visit supporter websites and push folk to join pointing out goals and potential benefits.

Increasing members would flow naturally after getting theattention of the support with a cause they would all wish to buy into if made aware of it. The constitution of that committee would be public with transparency based on an internal on line Forum to debate issues with intent of reaching a consensus on the merits of each issue thendeciding the best way to bring them to fruition using social media, advertising , e mails (once addresses established) and managing the e mail database.

Mahe said “ Set terms for leadership positions. Nobody should be in situ for long years, giving the impression of a fiefdom.

If issues are agreed by consensus on a Forum is a leader or leaders necessary? Could a Supporter Spokesperson not do the job of conveying the outcome of Forum decisions to  the Celtic SLO to be pursued via the live Supporters Forum?

Mahe said: “ Members polled on current issues, their response determining the direction of the Trusts efforts. Not the leadership tackling issues they identified, but acting upon member concerns as a rule.” And “ There’s thousands if not millions of Tims out there, with a lot of different skill sets among them. Harnessing these skills and getting some voluntary labour could greatly benefit the Trust.”


The idea is right it just does not need the CST as a channel to take resolutions to Celtic as Resolution 12 demonstrated at 2019 and 2020 AGM although the CST of course cantake part in the process  like any other supporter can.

Mahe said: “Overseas based supporters can just as easily manage the bread and butter stuff” (and more )

Yes indeed.  Video conferencing by ZOOM andexchanging ideas on blogs means any supporter anywhere with Internet access can bring their unique gift to the party.

Mahe said: “The supporters can either take an existing body and fix it as you propose or create a new one without the baggage. The former is easier, it’s wise to attempt a reshape rather than a new venture.”
Perhaps but only if old thinking is dumped. As Einstein once said, “We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

The Gombeen Man 

TMG Said at https://sentinelcelts.com/2022/05/17/loss-of-trust-in-the-celtic-trust/#comment-216205 

The Celtic support is much more conservative than many think. It’s a product of social, educational and religious conditioning. The security of the status quo is the preferred option for most. I’m not criticising that, it’s just my perception.

Is it security of status quo or unwillingness to work for change or lack of information to galvanise action? I think that is part of the problem but if the work of engaging and informing is simplified then perhaps galvanising will follow?

“Pedro’s miracle, the Continuity Myth is bound to have caught the eye of executives of debt ridden clubs at the European Clubs Association. Would other European jurisdictions buy into the Scottish solution? The dumping of £100+ of debt and the avoidance of the consequences?

I doubt it.- Article 12 of UEFA FFP prevents or deters debt dumping. RFC Ltd/RIFC PLC To UEFA are a new cub with latter operating the former and not that they are  the same club as RFC PLC now undergoing liquidation , although why UEFA have never questioned the SFA/SPL/SFL unique interpretation in the 5 WA that brought the myth to life is a puzzle especially when after been asked for their view by Phil Mac Giolla Bhain  they stated they had not seen the 5WA but more tellingly gave no indication of asking the SFA questions.

“ Celtic supporters are in an invidious position. Walk away and leave the spoils to Sevco or keep coughing up to be short changed by folk that have been misleading them for years? “

They might be coughing up but that does not mean they are happy and all it takes for the mood to darken is for Sevco to win and us lose.

“ The Sevco mentality is used to getting its own way with the football authorities, police, courts and media. It’s easy to be a hardman when there’s a Peeler watching your back. SPFL/SFA – Old Firmisim is now at UEFA’S door, courtesy of failed governance and corruption.

Scotland’s ugly sectarian secret is on the loose and likely to go viral… “

One long term objective of a new wide Celtic supporter platform would be to have the 5WA totally discredited as the lie creating/perpetuating document that  it is which poisons Scottish football to this day.

Chris McGachy.

Chris McGachy https://sentinelcelts.com/2022/05/17/loss-of-trust-in-the-celtic-trust/#comment-216211

In response to the comment beginning “ Replying to a number of responses in the thread” and ending “ But those running it (the CST) lack the organisational and management skills and desire to make it happen.”

I would say Like Monty Python it is time for something completely different and the questions have to be:

Why was the CST originally created that is its ultimate purpose?

Is the chosen method of shareholder acquisition to meet that purpose viable any longer?

Is CST not of itself divisive given the reliance on shareholders which arguably disenfranchises non shareholders who contribute funds to Celtic.

If divisive what other methods can be used given advances in communication since CST was born  to bring about the original purpose, which takes us back to purpose of any new approach.

Can one be created that removes the causes of division because a house divided ultimately falls as happened in 2020/21.

We need to Think again from bottom up.

MAGS McGILL

Margaret McGill https://sentinelcelts.com/2022/05/17/loss-of-trust-in-the-celtic-trust/#comment-216216  “I’ve said this before.

The Celtic PLC is a corporate dictatorship.

The Celtic Trust is essentially a Union.

The MO of the PLC is to make money for its major shareholders not the plebs, whose shares are worthless like the ones you would get in unions.Unions are always squabbling because the members are arguing over a relative pittance, fees, voting, infighting, and who sits at the table. Easy for corporations to dismember. The Celtic Trust is a dead duck.

Ive told you a 100 times that the solution is not to give them your money but that’s water of a dead ducks arse. Of course I’ll be very interested in anything that comes out of today’s AGM.

The traditional Trade  Union approach has been adversarial/ conflict based. However since Celtic supporters/shareholders are not asking for a pay rise but a say in how the quality of football they pay to watch can be continuously improved then the attitude of worker v bosses  needs changed on both sides. If supporters agree on anything it is we all want what is best for Celtic, it is what is best for Celtic as a whole that is the unknown. Start getting alignment on that and we are on a different path but first we need to harness the voice of the whole support in order to get the attention of The Board and I’ll cover what form that might take in a subsequent blog.

What happened at the CST AGM has been published on SC on 4th June.

Todaloo

I’m reposting the link to your comment because it contains a lot of truth and you clearly have been following events on line and changing some of your views as more information has emerged. I hope that my responses to other comments might have the same effect on in terms of thinking again. Not so much about what has happened in the past and the invidious position Rangers put Celtic in in 2012 but how we might repair the damage in the future.

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SeS

Auldheid

Appreciate you taking time to put that detailed response together.

Much there to reflect on …and consider.

A very positive feeling.

Thanks

The Gombeen Man

Auldheid,

It’s uncanny how the actions of senior executives of Scottish football in 2012, are mirrored in today’s behaviour of the beleaguered Boris Johnson and the DUP.

Instead of having the courage to embrace the opportunities that were presented, a dangerous, shortsighted path was followed with inevitable consequences.

The lies and deception over the 5WA are so similar to the denial of democracy, the undermining of the Protocol and the British Government’s intention to breach international law.

Celtic PLC’S failings in all of this have failed those who needed Celtic to walkaway from the quick sectarian buck in 2012 and make a stand for integrity.

That’s why banter about players, transfers and VAR can seem so pointless and hollow. Celtic PLC are just about making money out of a dirty business. Celtic should of been about building bridges, and ethical behaviour. Not collusion and cover-ups.

In much the same way as the denial of democracy is leading to the potential unraveling of much of the progress of the Good Friday Agreement.

The stands are full and the CL awaits. The PLC have hit the sectarian jackpot.

But there’s a much heavier price. Celtic PLC comprimised everything Celtic are supposed to be about to get the Old Firm back.
They don’t care a jot for the consequences in Ireland or Scotland.

Until Celtic supporters see that they are being taken for a ride by folk who feed on sectarian misery we are on a seemingly inevitable path.

The CT and other representative organisations are simply Firebreaks. They divert and extinguish any heat that’s coming the way of the PLC.

Thanks for documenting all of the history behind this.

That documentary evidence will show a complete lack of leadership and morality at Celtic.

Tragically an opportunity lost at a sporting level and potentially at a political level, all for the sake of money and power.

The cynical financial exploitation and manipulation of dangerous sectarian division is plain wrong.

The 5WA and subsequent lack of honesty was always about putting the needs of the wealthy first and those who had most to gain (on both sides of the community) last.

Future generations will look at all of this and ask,

‘Why didn’t they see it coming?’

Let’s hope Boris and Co don’t follow the same path as the PLC.

SeS

TGM

Absolutely – succinctly, capturing every crucial issue.

Hope folk read that and consider, or reconsider their view.

Well done!

The Gombeen Man

SES,

Thanks for the reply. I’ve followed that family tree from Mayo all the way to the top.

I’ll post another time.

TFW,

Thanks for the post the other night. I agree with you. I haven’t had the time to put together a comprehensive response.

Chairbhoy,

I hope you’re well. I’ll come back about the O’Neill’s in due course. This tale concerns the Helen of Troy of Ireland and the Battle of Yellow Ford.

Mahe,

Safe trip home.

Oot into the pouring Irish rain.

Till later.

BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS

About a decade ago,when the problems at Ibrox were clearly only going one way,all my hun mates told me that we couldn’t survive without them. Like the banks,they were too big to fail.

I reckoned then,and still do,that it was a route worth taking,that the risks short term were significantly lower than the gains in the long term. In short,they should have been consigned to history-like Lehman Bros.

We are stuck with them now,and need to make the best of things until the next time. And a way to ensure that we deal better with their demise when that next time comes is to increase the accountability of our own club.

Till now,that role has largely fallen to The CST. I don’t think they have performed particularly well,though better than other groups “representing” the fans. Can we reform or improve that organisation?

Well,one or the other needs to take place,for sure. The status quo has been tried,and has not come up to scratch.

Friesdorfer

Good Morning all, from a dreich Monifieth on Tay.
Outstanding lead article and follow up posts. I was one of the 40 who attended the Celtic Trust AGM, and underwhelmed doesn’t come close. I fully support Chris McGrachy’s comments and interpretation of events. Many fine comments this morning which, I sincerely hope, lead to a damascene conversion.
HH

BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS

FRIESDORFER

Hope you all enjoy your holiday. As you don’t have us with you,jinxing your travel arrangements,you should be fine and dandy.

Friesdorfer

BMCUWP
Cheers M.
HH

Auldheid

The Gombeen Man
Auldheid,

It’s uncanny how the actions of senior executives of Scottish football in 2012, are mirrored in today’s behaviour of the beleaguered Boris Johnson and the DUP.
============
The parallels are stark and for evil to take hold good men only have to do nothing.

Its time for good men to say “Enough!” as they waken from their slumber.

This is much more than a football issue to be tackled one starfish at a time, but football corruption is a good beach to start from.

McCaff

Afternoon all! A wee word to Jim if you’re lurking – not seen your name up for a few days, I hope you’re well! Puff – hadn’t seen your name up either and was getting worried about you, too! I see you jumped on for one last night. I hope you’re well mate!!
Anyway, did anybody see this last night (after sitting about most of the morning I ended up working till after 9 last night so missed the Scotland game.) I hope this works…
https://twitter.com/FootyAccums/status/1534625215120035840

McCaff

…and in other news…I see Alistair Jack MP and Sec of State for Scotland, hosted TRFC at a 150th Celebratory dinner last night in another blatant continuation exercise. In an interview broadcast on TRTV John Bennett said he was proud of the pioneering roots of the club and they were delighted to again prove to be pioneers by professionalising their ladies’ team in this anniversary year, the FIRST club in Scotland to have a professional ladies set up. EH….John, I know you like to rewrite history etc but WE did it FIRST!! 3 years ago!!!
#YouCouldnaeMarkTheirNeckWiABlawtorchFC

CFC

McCaff

Pioneers?
More like pie in the sky wishful thinking.

I prefer Philmac’s description- gallant profiteers

Auldheid

Thank you for your comprehensive insight above.
Lots to consider.

McCaff

CFC…I was almost-quoting John Bennett whose use of certain words to invoke a sense of tradition and longevity into the 10 Year Old club was nauseating! 2 and a half minutes of misplaced triumphalism and outright lies. I’m not gonna post a link here but it’s easy to find if you want it!

CFC

McCaff

Thanks, the myth of continuity is nauseating.
This projection is Important to them to maintain the supremacist mindset.

A mindset that sadly pervades many areas in society.

Celtic1member1vote

Celtic Ownership Model ..

Contact 55,000 Season Ticket Holders and 25,000 Small Shareholders.
From the combined approx 80,000 it will also highlight how many supporters are both Season Ticket Holders and Small Shareholders.

Make it that this happens every 10 years.

Q1 .. Are you happy with the ownership model of Celtic.

Q2 .. Would you prefer to see a 50+1 Membership Ownership Model like they have in Germany,

Q3 .. Or a One Member One Vote 100% Fan Ownership Model.

If more than 50% of the combined support say yes to a Membership Ownership Model then there is a mandate for change.

The Celtic Support came together to stop Bernard Higgins, so could easily come together to fund and organise a Ballot.

Democratic elected representatives of all Celtic supporter groups would need to liaise and ask their respective members if they wanted to have this Ballot.

If yes then they come together and fund it and organise it and if not then things stay the same.

Fairly simple really !!

McCaff

C1M1V…this is not a democratically elected organisation, as you know! It’s a profit-making business which punters are happy to finance/subscribe to. The CST set out with the aims you list below but for one reason or another, or likely more than one, it has crashed and burned. The majority shareholders will stymie or kibosh any perceived rebellion – remember the fencing barriers outside the stadium a couple of years ago to keep the directors safe en route to their cars!
As has been said many times before the only way would be to starve the company of investment…and has been pointed out many times before not enough are willing to cut the throat of the Club even it was for the short term!

Bigrailroadblues

Good afternoon all from Shawlands. A meeting tomorrow at the Shipbank, Saltmarket at 1pm. All welcome, no exceptions. Bring spare liver and hula hoops. Or Tayto crisps.

bada bing1

McCaff- Never known a Klub, so obsessed about it’s existence……

Margaret McGill

I don’t understand the major conceptual difficulty with Celtic supporters reflected somewhat by comments on here. Celtic are a Private Limited Company. A capitalist private enterprise. The only way to thwart a corporation is to not buy the product. If you continue to give them your money do you really believe you can impose a Union ( the CST) on them ? FFS!
Talk about pissin in the wind

McCaff

BadaBingBadaBoom!…their need to be seen and heard overrides any rationale. Their WATP mentality needs to be constantly massaged and nurtured. The video I watched of John Bennett at last night’s dinner was pure unadulterated Unionist/WATP pish with certain buzzwords obviously deliberately used to appeal to their hard of thinking masses. Unfortunately, he also lapsed into the usual telling porkies about perceived achievements. A laughable mob if they didn’t hold so much sway in wider society!

CFC

M McG

For clarity, Celtic is a Public Limited Company, a PLC.

It’s share price, and market capitalisation, determined by success, or otherwise, of the product- the fitba’.

It strikes me that it is the ethics of the PLC that is the battleground. The ethos of corporate governance Not the actual product itself.

While this existential issue exercises the thoughts of a few, do enough supporters actually give a fig if titles and cups are won.
Probably not.

CFC

Ps
The CST/ Membership is more of a pressure group than a Union. But I take your point.

Margaret McGill

CFC
Thanks for correcting me but that’s just a label.
The main motivation of Celtic PLC is to maximize its profits for its shareholders by milking its customers. They don’t care about anyones opinions politics ideology or gripes as long as you pay and pay. Only when you stop paying will they listen and since most Tim’s just want to fuck the Huns and pay into this bile they got you all over a barrel.

FSTB

Test

Margaret McGill

In fact Tim’s are so keen on the bile that the PLC took a gamble in 2012 to sign them back into existence and it worked wonderfully. Unfortunately the Huns are more interested in whipping Tim’s at football in the cheating environment. They also got a perceived Europa league final in their young existence

FSTB

What is the ultimate goal of the people with the power within our club .
Is it keep their investment ticking over in the hope that changes in cross border leagues finally gives them an out of Scottish football and instant riches to add to the money pile they are already sitting atop .
It costs serious money to run the club our size every year and was this a factor in their turning the other cheek when being cheated .
To me it looks like their minds are made up regards the team from govan . It brings in money and keeps the scottish games profile up .

The question is , how much manure are they willing to eat to feed from the teat of a club that plays by their own rules and just breaks or ignores any that dont suit them.

I wonder who the money men in our club and in the sixth floor at hampden were rooting for in the EL final .Is the deal the same as 2011 .

If only the club playing out of govan can get the CL cash it will keep our game ticking over nicely.

Did they ever stop to think what these clubs from govan would do if they DID get CL money . Maybe it’s written into the infamous 5WA that if they get it they will thereafter live within their means .

All I can say is , if that is what the people running our club and Scottish football think will happen then they haven’t been paying attention

big packy

MAGS, your wasting your time mate,celtic had the chance to bury them bassas from govan ,but instead prefered the bigot buck ,now coming back to the celtic support, most of them not all of them, want us to play the infamous glesga rainjurs four times a year thats the be all and the end all for them ,another true story.

16 Roads

Still waiting & hoping to join English football after all these years?
That Dermot Desmond has some patience, I’ll credit him with that much.

Evening all.

I hope you are all in fine fettle.

The Real McCoy

Apologies for the late response to your post from last night. I am glad you enjoy some of the musical choices.

I you don’t mind me asking, at the end of your post that you had been fortunate enough to have been in the presence of the Artists. I’m intrigued as to how you were so blessed.

Apologies if you think I’m being nosey, but I am just that, nosey. 🙂

Brian.

McCaff

Brian…best of luck with that line of questioning! I’ve had my suspicions about TRM for a while but he plays his cards pretty close to his chest!!
#HowardHughesCSC 🤣🤣🤣

McCaff

I am genuinely intrigued as to how, firstly, being so fortunate, and secondly, how it feels to be in the presence of some of your heroes.

Recently some posters were talking about great Glasgow pubs that have long since disappeared. My personal favourite was Morrisons on the Clydeside. A pal of mine played football at a professional level and was good mates with the ‘The Maestro’ who had played alongside at Scotland school boys level.

By per chance on Saturday evening, we ventured into Morrisons Bar, and low an behold the legend was there. He joined our company for a while, I was awestruck, a gibbering wreck. Didn’t know what to say, just stood there like a rabbit caught in the head lights.

Suffice to say Paul was a lovely guy. An encounter I will never forget.

Brian

16 Roads

Lee Marvin refused to film in Ireland due to being offered a sandwich every time he introduced himself..

16 Roads
Lee Marvin refused to film in Ireland due to being offered a sandwich every time he introduced himself..

=================================================================================

Brilliant, if you don’t mind I’m gonnae steal that, 🙂

I’m just the ‘Thief of Bad Gags’

Brian

Mike in Toronto

McCaff @ 1:54

“As has been said many times before the only way would be to starve the company of investment…and has been pointed out many times before not enough are willing to cut the throat of the Club even it was for the short term!”
*********

McCaff,

You seem like a sensible sort. And I get the sense that your heart is in the right place. But, comments like “cut the throat of the Club” are the sort of hyperbole and fear mongering that needs to stop if there is ever to be any change.

There is a cancer at Celtic. That cancer is (i) the desire for money which over rides all of the principles on which the club was founded, and led it to get into bed with bigots who hate the majority of the Celtic support, and (ii) the willingness of too many fans to accept the ‘ways of the Old Firm’.

Not dealing with these cancers is what will kill the spirit of the Club, if it isnt dead already.

But when a person gets cancer, we dont just say ‘oh, well, not much we can do’. Nor do we say, chemotherapy is really bad, so we might as well kill the patient’. And I dont believe that a doctor ever said, ‘you have cancer, I might as well cut your throat’. No… the cancer is cut and/or radiation is administered so that the patient may live. So short term injury or poison has to be administered, but in measured doses so that the cancer is killed, and the host, while weakened, survives in the long term.

That is what is needed, and, I believe, is the only thing that has any chance of saving Celtic from becoming, at best, just like every other business, and, at worst, Sevco’s flunkies (which, the last 10 years has suggested is the long term destination for Celtic if nothing is done).

No one, as far as I am aware, has ever suggested killing the club (although, if it continues on its present course, that would probably be a good thing). A boycott would not kill the club. If the boycott was large enough, and the club didn’t respond, then the Club may kill itself.

But, as I and others who know much more about this than I (people like Balkin) have written about many, many times… the club is a business, which is pathologically mandated to make money, which means it will not commit suicide because that would interfere with its mandate to make money.

the company will go where the money is. If enough people say they want the company to be honest and ethical, and are willing to put their money where their principals are, then the company will follow… because it is mandated by law (and, as Balkin wrote) driven by its pathological need, to purse that profit. (However, as I have said for years, DD floated a balloon in 2012 to see if fans really wanted the zombies to keep going… and he got his answer…but that is a slightly different discussion)

Those who know this stuff much better than you and i tell us that Celtic will never allow its financial throat to be slit. If a financial knife is held to its neck (metaphorically, of course) by the fans and shareholders, the Club will respond long before its throat is metaphorically slit. It is pathologically driven to respond to its market, because that is where the money is.

if the club is to be saved, it will require the intervention of enough fans who actually care about their own principles and the principles of the club.

The fans are the ones who will decide the future of Celtic.

If enough fans care about the club, then they will do what is necessary to ensure that it becomes the sort of club that they can be proud of.

If not, then I believe that the club will continue on its present trajectory and become the lesser half of the bigoted Old Firm. (yes, I know, Sevco have only won 2 trophies, but in only a decade, they have made a European final and are are now ahead of Celtic in European rankings)

Either way, Celtic fans will get exactly the sort of club they deserve.

Auldheid

Celtic1member1vote
Celtic Ownership Model ..

Contact 55,000 Season Ticket Holders and 25,000 Small Shareholders.
From the combined approx 80,000 it will also highlight how many supporters are both Season Ticket Holders and Small Shareholders.
=================
This elephant needs to be swallowed one bit at a time.

a)First we need to be able to contact shareholders and ST holders alike.

b)Second we need to give them something worth acting on.

I’ll be suggesting how we might address a) and b) in a follow up blog to this one that has helped tease out the challenges to overcome.

Nite all.

Big day tomorrow.

McCaff, I had a right good rummage through the old 7 berth radiogram, found some of these old 33 and a 1/3’s

Tonight’s trio inspired by yesterdays leader by SeS.

I hope you enjoy.

https://youtu.be/Viqr6KHwJjc

https://youtu.be/0yq-Fw7C26Y

https://youtu.be/9GPR848mhIs

Nite all, my friends in Celtic.

Brian

As usual, one more.

Roughie, talking about Tam Burns

https://youtu.be/iu1RV4f54DE

McCaff

MikeInTVLawyerland…long time no speak! I hope you’re well.
Whilst accusing me of hyperbole you dismiss my very last few words “even in the short term” which contradicted the finality of the “throat-cutting” analogy and showed that I understand the essence of both the business and the needs of the supporters. Despite the happenings since 2012 the support have generally supported the Club, perhaps as in my case against my head telling me not to. This proves that the feelings of yourself and many, many others are in a minority. My real point, I suppose, is that despite the Cub losing its original raison d’etre it still serves the needs and desires of so many people. Ten years of arguing the same points and still the arguments persist without any difference to either the support of the Club or modus operandi of the PLC. A genuine stalemate as far as I can see. Auldheid is in the thick of this story and has been a thorn in the side of the PLC, who must wish he would just feckin do one, but even he has had to adapt his attack to approach from a different angle. I wish for change but am pragmatic enough to realise that 1) I am not prepared to give up what is an extremely important part of my life in so many different ways and 2) the PLC will not be put under enough pressure to facilitate real change! I wish it wasn’t so but unfortunately it is what it is.

Pitymevin÷
16 Roads

BelmontBrian63 – not a bother chief.
HH. 🙂🍀

McCaff

Brian…you’re missing the obvious! TRM is The Real McCoy!!!
#ColumboCSC 😜

CFC

M I T, McCaff

I subscribe to the idea that the number of supporters required to effect change will only arise in a period of sustained failure.
So, the Huns presently have a greater Euro coefficient and have recently contested a Euro final – that doesn’t equate to a Celtic failure. That is an irrelevance to us.
We have won the league and as a result will enjoy CL riches.

The importance of winning the league is hugely significant.

The Huns will not become the senior partner in The Old Firm duopoly any time soon. They have to win things consistently to do that.
Also, the assumption they will become the dominant force requires them to miraculously cure their inherent ability at self destructive business malfeasance.

Frodshambhoy

BB
Peter Green at his best
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kTvKaLW5bu8

McCaff

CFC…no-one would have been happier or more satisfied than me if the RFC had died never to return. I’m not happy with my Club’s involvement n their resurrection and resurgence but to me they are as irrelevant as any other club in the League. We need to beat them to be Champions, always. If they weren’t here it would need to be somebody else we beat. That’s it for me. The accusations liberally thrown around here that we are Old Firm collaborators is nonsense in my opinion and serves only the agenda of the people throwing the insults.
I agree with you that we are in a far better position than them to progress as a Club, hopefully Nicholson has the backing of DD and the PLC to ensure Ange is backed to achieve his own ambitions as I don’t think they’re too far removed from our own!

Celtic1member1vote

Auldheid ..

I hope your well and enjoying a good bit of a rest these days.

Look forward to reading your suggestions.

One possible suggestion from me if I may, is simply to ask :

Is it morally fair that Celtic Season Ticket Holders should continue to give the Club approx
£50 Million each season in all ticket and merchandise revenues (which is approx 50% of its turnover) pre-covid turnover approx £100 Million, and yet have no voting rights or any say in how the Club operates.

Nearly £1Billion will probably have now been given to the Club by Season Ticket Holders over 28 years in total revenues since the inception of the PLC, without again any voting rights or say in how the Club operates.

Again is this morally fair or is the Club simply taking advantage of the passion that
Celtic Supporters have for the Club.

Disclaimer.. Obviously, I haven’t done 28 years of spread sheets, but hopefully the above figures are a sufficient estimate and close enough in total financial terms, to explain how it could be argued that the PLC are simply taking advantage of the Celtic Support both morally and financially.

Supporter total revenues for each year would naturally include all Season Ticket sales,
plus all European home games, plus all domestic cup home games as well,
plus huge merchandise revenues annually also.

As I say just a suggestion !!

As always take it easy and look after yourself.

CFC

McCaff

The Huns were never going to disappear. No matter what action was taken in 2012.
They exist in the stands, the blogsphere, the friendly media, everywhere, anywhere.
They are not going away.

They are our main competitors and, as a result, it is our successes and their failures that I celebrate.
In that order.

The events of 2012 do not reflect well on our club.
We should have insisted on due process being followed and stated without doubt that we recognise them as a new club. We were failed by the club hierarchy.
Is 10 years too short a period to put aside that angst? Is it healthy to carry such negative baggage that long?

We are where we are and those on SC who continually use events which cannot be undone to ascribe negative characteristics on supporters who follow in good faith should perhaps look for more positive alternative interests if Celtic ails them so much.

I guess the critics are inextricably drawn to the year on year “Fix” just like the vast majority are.

Margaret McGill

MIT
Great interpretation
Well crafted post
Thanks

Margaret McGill

CFC
The Huns were liquidated

CFC

M McG

Define Huns.

CFC

My interpretation for what it’s worth:

Any entity playing out of Ibrox and it’s bigoted support.