Days Of Future Past

Morning,all.

Interesting debate on the development stage of kids as footballers yesterday. Including the comment from MCCAFF about being wary allowing his son to go out to play unsupervised. A sign of the times,perhaps? Whether the increased threat to youngsters nowadays is real or just perceived,it is bloody real to every parent!

When I was a kid-and this is likely to be the same for most on here-we would play football anywhere it was physically possible to play the game. Even a narrow close! (Header to start,only one touch by foot from each player) We would often head up to the “public park”,about two miles away on the other side of town. Blissfully not a bit bothered by drunken strangers staggering home and asking for a kick of the ball. 

We usually agreed,gutting ourselves as imaginary full backs tackled them! Didn’t bother us walking back in the dark either-why would it?

But the main source of the problem is the sheer cost nowadays. Even if only playing for the local boys club,there is the cost of kit and boots-each of which are rapidly outgrown. Hiring pitches and match officials where necessary,and transport. If a youngster is considered talented enough for a regional squad,that will only  increase. 

Heaven forbid that a kid should be picked up by a full national league team,as practice and training are usually centralised,leading to even more transport costs as well as a further hit to parents on their working and social lives. 

Worst of all though is that these bigger clubs usually ban their young prospects from playing for anyone else during their development. Including the school they attend,where they were probably scouted in the first place! 

That is surely harmful to a youngster’s development. Their pals are all out playing football for the youth club or whatever while the star man is stuck indoors on his play station? And before you know it,the lad misses his mates more than he enjoys,say,Celtic. In fact,he enjoys the bloody play station more than he enjoys all the hassle that goes with affiliation to a big club? 

Even if the parents can afford the various costs and time,even if the youngster is fully motivated and has made it past the “Andy Robertson stage” of literally hitting the heights,when he is playing for various age groups and the development squad,there are still dangers and barriers to their progress with us,or any other club. 

Youngsters are rarely given an opportunity to show their talents in the first team. That is due to the relentless pressure at the top end of the game,so we are told-yet our kids are off to such pressure-free zones as Liverpool and Bayern?  There is the strong likelihood of being poached by “bigger” names in the English or continental  game,as we have recently seen,to the detriment of the club’s future financial and footballing future. They are shown a clear path of development there,and a route into the first team-along with recent examples!

What can we show them then? A list of jettisoned players struggling to make a living in the game,or elsewhere and nowhere because they have become so disillusioned that they have given the game up? Too old for the few apprenticeships available,and not up to a decent college course?

Look at Islam Feruz though as a warning about overreach. A counterpoint to the allure of the big boys? But he had a five year contract with Chelsea,and the signing-on fee alone probably came to seven figures. His salary during that time would have done so again,a good few times over. You can see his point,and that will be why we have lost our fledgling stars recently. He certainly ain’t getting game time at Celtic,not even at 19yo,not when Lennon is the boss. 

Aberdeen gave Calvin Ramsay a debut at 16yo. As an 18yo,he was a regular choice. Before he had even turned 19yo,he was joining Liverpool for over £6m! A month or so later,we lost perhaps our best prospect in years to the same club. Ben Doak,17yo but barely a feature for us,even from the bench. Now,I can’t blame Ange for that,last season was a pressure one like we haven’t seen for a good few years. (And should never have had to face again,btw) 

But Ben looked at the youngsters already in and around the Liverpool first team,realised that the club has a good record of giving the kids a go. Not so long ago,IIRC,they played Arsenal in a late stage League Cup tie where hey both played the kids and drew 5-5 or something daft! Having said that,the players had their moment,and some are regulars for their national teams now,and playing in the World Cup!

Was Ben going to get that at Celtic? Maybe,but strangely the chances of advancement were at the bigger club. Which can’t be right. Unless Celtic are doing something badly wrong. Which we clearly are. Why did we only get £250k for the brighter prospect of Ben Doak and Aberdeen got  £6m for Ramsay?

Ah,you will rightly say. Ramsay had signed his professional contract,while Doak had not. But that is NOT the answer-that is the crux of the question in the first place!

I don’t know how to fix this. It is clearly much deeper than he societal problems I outlined at the start,and IMO is a failure on the part of the club. What worries me is that the club don’t seem to have a clue either. I’m sure that Ange will have been beelin’ about Ben’s decision,and the reasons for it. But we can hardly expect him to combine the position of Youth Development Officer into his current role of manager,chief scout and chief operations officer (football)

But we ignore it at our peril. Too many years and young careers have been squandered along the way,along with a shedload of cash. Repairing this mess will take years,progress will be on a step by step basis,and coming out the other side with a new Quality Street Gang is just a fantasy. But a club like Celtic,with the pick of youth in the country and elsewhere should really be introducing a live prospect and future regular every year or two,at worst. And we all know that. 

And I’m willing to bet we can have this same conversation in ten years,to paraphrase Einstein. 

<><><><><>
Above article by BMCUWP

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BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS
BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS
Auldheid

Auldheid
McCaff

That was an interesting “rant” on youth development. Can I copy it to the Scottish Football Supporters Association who are working on a report on the future of Scottish Football and grassroots football is an area they are looking at.

Auldheid

BMCUW

On Bellingham I agree. He has that je ne sais quoi that makes him special.

He must have a French connection to be that good.

Auldheid

One of the hurdles Celtic face is us the support.

As long as all that matters is finishing above our greatest rivals just to give us banter rights and silence them, plus the financial income from CL participation to make sure we keep banter superiority, then youngsters are not going to get the chance if the title race is tight.

Only by creating a good size points gap will the conditions be created for giving young players the opportunity to develop.

That might be part of Ange’s plan, helped by neutralising their unsustainable player spending policy via FSR since SDM arrived.

The likes of Ajax are not a good comparator because they have more rivals for the title and if they lose one, the canals in Amsterdam are not fouled or filled with bodies in a George Square equivalent.

The reference to how the Swiss managed to be competitive in the WC Group stages came up here the other day. The Swiss see football as a means of building social cohesion, so its encouraged and catered for all ages.

In Scottish football there is more to be earned from sowing division than sowing cohesion.

It is interesting that more and more youngsters are leaving their home nation to play abroad for its a bit of a basket case here and the environment they grow up in is not conducive to develop neither as a player or as a person.

The culture of Scottish football needs to change but are supporters of Celtic and Rangers willing to pay the price?

What if there was an agreement with UEFA to reduce the prize money to the competing Scottish clubs and increase the solidarity payment by same amount specifically for player development?

Who would be prepared to make that “sacrifice”?

Auldheid…be my guest, fill yer boots! 😁

BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKER

AULDHEID

I cannot argue with your goals,and very rarely disagree with you on much else either. But your view of the way forward is very much based on a universal altruism,much as I admiire the principle.

Now,you’ve met me,and I have friends and acquaintances built up over a lifetime. As we all do. And I think the consensus would be that I’m very much in favour of a standardised-which is not the same as everyone taking the same home every week-income across the board,that the better off and privileged should provide for the less well off in society. The more you earn the more you help out.

I recall a speech from President Obama,where he talked about the military/industrial complex there,a subject first broached by a Republican former 5* general,President Eisenhower. That these were almost the only growth areas in the US economy. That companies would not build without the housing and transport infrastructure first being provided by the government.

Which was still true over half a century later,as congress after congress went for tax cuts for those very same companies,denying the country the funds to invest in the first place. A self-defeating exercise.

Sadly,that is very much the case in football too. We won’t willingly give a million or two to the league to distribute to the diddy teams who make up the numbers—even if they beat us and the huns now and again. Our priority is keeping the huns alive-or any form of competition really.

Can’t say they’re wrong either,even though I hate them for it. This morning,someone posted the attendance figures over the years. The years when we were uncompetitive makes some sobering reading.

The Gombeen Man

Thanks BMCUWPS for the article.

Quick observations :

Plenty of food for thought there. It kind of a mirrors the decline of manufacturing and heavy industry.
All of a sudden it was cheaper to produce and buy from abroad and the indigenous industries struggled.
The demand for the Old Firm sustains and distorts the whole thing in Scotland.

We have a set-up based on a unsustainable bygone era.

Many of the SPFL games outwith the big two are hard sells.

MIT and ATOB have alluded to the number of clubs in the past.

Re-Auldheid’s point, I’m not sure I have any faith in the SFA to use any additional funds wisely. The re-build of Hampden still resonates.

How would the PLC respond to reduced CL income? Cut costs? Increased prices, SB’s?

Anyway,

Margarita McGill,

Fair points about China & India. The following is from the Indian publication Zee News, November 2022.

It’s refreshing that you’re showing the way by embracing the big picture and encouraging wider debate within the community.

“What should be done?

With Kalyan Chaubey taking charge as the President of the All India Football Federation (AIFF), there is a lot of talk about the roadmap for Indian football. After becoming the President, Chaubey during his first press conference gave an outline for the development of the sport in India.

On completion of 100 days in office, Chaubey told a group of journalists, “We will work to the best of our abilities to make it (roadmap) a success. Our aim would be to ensure that the state associations benefit from the infrastructural support of the Central government as well as the state governments. We also have plans to introduce more tournaments. If we can restart the U-21 national championship, it will benefit the India U-21 team.”

“A uniform youth league will be introduced to get the best out of it. Former footballers in every state, maybe those who have played for more than a decade, would be roped in. Their expertise can be used as scouts in youth tournaments.”

At present, only a few states like West Bengal, Goa, Kerala, northeastern states and Delhi have their own leagues in different categories. There is hardly any such league football in big states like Punjab, Haryana, Bihar, Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh and Rajasthan.”

– Sound familiar?

It’s a positive to have a kindred spirit on board, with a passion for the development of the Asian game.

What’s your take on Kalyan Chaubey’s plan?

Do you feel the plan for development leagues in
Punjab, Haryana, Bihar, Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh and Rajasthan is likely to be successful?

FIFA World Cup 2022: Where does India rank in FIFA rankings and why World Cup is a distant dream?
https://zeenews.india.com/football/fifa-world-cup-2022-where-does-india-rank-in-fifa-rankings-and-why-world-cup-is-a-distant-dream-2537697.html

Duty calls,

Jobo Baldie

Good morning friends.
Another fine thought provoking article Bobby.
Kieran Tierney was given his chance unexpectedly after Izzaguire broke his ankle at Pittodrie. Kieran played the next couple of league games and we then had a home Europa League game, in my mind it was a 6pm kick off. As we gathered at The Corner waiting on the team being announced we were all debating who would be at left back, assuming it wouldn’t be the youngster. But it was. And we now know he never looked back. So fair play to Ronny for being brave enough on that one.
I read later that Ronnys approach with fringe players wasn’t to give them 20 minutes here and there. But instead, to look for a sequence of maybe 4 or 5 games and tell the player that he would be starting them all. That approach removes the danger of the player thinking he has to produce a Man Of The Match performance right away. It encourages him to play his way into the role, knowing that even if he makes a couple of mistakes he’ll still be starting the following game.
However, as Auldheid suggested, the biggest obstacle can be our own fans. Too many of them (us?) are far too quick in making our decisions, whether good or bad. New players can be written off after 1 game. Personally I blame Simon Cowell

The Gombeen Man

Postscript,

The Indian national side did qualify for the 1950 World Cup Finals (Brazil) but withdrew due to an apparent FIFA ban on players playing barefoot and a lack of government funding.

Eight out of eleven players on the Indian team played barefoot at the 1948 London Olympics.

The players pointed out that they were playing football not ‘bootball.’

https://indianexpress.com/article/trending/trending-in-india/why-the-indian-football-team-did-not-wear-shoes-during-the-1948-london-olympics-8280966/

Madmitch

BMCUW @ high productivity / 10 issues in the one article

Outdoor play — how things have changed over 40 years’ish.
Children have more chance of been run over by a Ferrari than abducted by a “bogeyman”.
The opportunities are there — just a case that the older generation don’t recognise them.

Holy City 3G park — funded by the quarry in a roundabout way — can have 8 groups playing at the one time.
Probably starting at 11/12 and all the way up to guys in their 20’s running off a hangover.
Would never have happened in my day — it would have been a warzone with some many groups in close proximity.
Great what happens when you take lead out of paint / petrol / plumbing.
Community resource second only to the station.

More chance of being run over by a SUV dropping people off than getting an irn bru shampoo from one of the Holy City’s more physically expressive characters — not you Kojak before you start moaning — so times have changed and children are adapting.

The BD issue — he was with us in plain sight but the focus was on KD so he was just part of the youth chorus for far too long. Looks to have been somewhat of a late developer but at 16 he was tearing it up and only started to get noticed last season. AP saw the issue and tried to do something about it and give him prominence and game time.

However it was not enough and we have lost out on a very big talent who is building a reputation at 16 and 17 not living off a reputation he had when he was 12 and 13.

So why did BD leave and would a similar talent continue to leave in 2 or 4 years time?

Does St Ninians have the right ethos / community spirit to develop hungry / top rank football players?
I offered some comments regarding the way it operates from my experience — second hand experience at best.
But the main issue — clear to everyone — is that it is not working as intended and talent is leaving as soon as it can.
Why do so many players leave at 16 / 17 for admittedly bigger clubs — are they scunnered by our set up or is it better opportunities elsewhere? If others are “better” should we make efforts to understand why and upgrade our offer?

We currently don’t have the squad or football performance of L/pool or BM — so why would a young player expect to get more game time at these bigger clubs than they would expect to get with us? AP gives game time to young players just a case that we had to buy these young players in.

Are our facilities up to scratch for top rank youth football — and if not when are we going to spend more?
Was it simply down to wages / money — and if yes can we / must be able to pay more?

Others will point out that we take players at 16/17 from the academies of other teams — fair point but the issue is what do we do with these talents? Apart from KA I would suggest that we do very little so that viewpoint is not the answer we should be looking for.

Consequently pretty complex subject — however we need to find an answer as we can’t afford the alternative.

.

Morning. Waiting for the 6th plumbing visit since the 5th of November

Thought provoking leader and excellent replies.

BMCUWP. I was really surprised Liverpool came in for Ramsay and Doak- for a few years now the idea had circulated that the big English teams were not interested in Scottish homegrown youngsters if they had first team experience as it meant they had learned bad habits. I doubt Doak appeared for more than 50 minutes in total – and certainly looked no better than Moffat who had played before the New Year break- but still it surprised me that Liverpool signed him.

I don’t know that there has ever been a better way to bring youngsters into the fold than Jock Stein’s method with the Quality Street players. A few games here and there against mid-table or lower opposition, a place on the bench for a few games in the cups for maybe a couple or seasons and then at the start of the lad’s season3 in from the start. I wonder if Ange would have picked a couple of youngsters in this season’s league cup games had we drawn lower league teams at Parkhead and not tricky looking away ties against top division teams. I should add that I was not a fan of Ronny Deila overall but his integration of Callum Mac and Kieran Tierney into the team was the way to do it.

Auldheid and Jobo make fairly pointed critiques of the support which I agree with. The obsession with 10-I-A-R almost from 13 Feb 2012 said it all. Being better than them is better than not but overall it’s not a big ambition. And going back at least 30 years much of the support has seemed to be especially harsh on youngsters given a chance. Gerry Creaney turned out to be a fairly ordinary striker but at the start of the 92/3 season he looked as though he might be going to deliver- but a lot of Jungle dwellers gave him the bird during a midweek game with St Johnstone in mid-September and he declined therafter. He was an extreme example and maybe I’m unlucky to be surrounded by even moanier bassas than me but Tierney excepted every youngster since the stadium was rebuilt seems to be met with a mixture of impatiende and an expectation of failure

Jimbo

Madmitch

TGM @ 9.43

The analogy of heavy industry then with football now — not quite getting it …

The decline of heavy industry in Scotland was down to its inability to move from one level of technology to another.
We were very good at the steam age — in fact we invented quite a lot of it.
Probably too good as it bred arrogance and stifled further innovation.

However we could not move forward into the electrical age that started in the 1920’s and gradually fell behind.
Companies like Beardmore saw it coming — they tried lots of new tech but none of it stuck.
You can ask why we were so unsuccessful that it had all fizzled out by the 1930’s?
Lack of depth in the new technologies would be my first guess.
We came across the same issues as everyone else — just a case we couldn’t work through them.

They still build merchant ships in Europe along with trains — just a case of not on the Clyde.

Regarding football — we have changed and we have been through a number of generations.
Just a case that 18 years of PL inspired stagnation makes it look like we will never have another chance.

AP is giving change a good go and hopefully the board will let him get on with it.
As always PL is worth a watching.

Madmitch

J67 @ 10.46

BD vs OM — 21/22 league performances.

OM is at least 3 years older than BD so any performance levels have to be seen in this context.
BD seems to have been a bit of a late bloomer but he was making huge strides forward last season.
You only have to look at their current situations to work out the difference in their potential.

OM = B/pool development squad at 20 going on 21.
BD = L/pool development squad at just turned 17.

For the record I thought that OM looked to have the potential to make the transition to the first team squad.
Unfortunately — to me anyway — the more he played for the first team the poorer his performances became.

Not sure what would have cured this — boot up the erse vs arm around the shoulder?

The Gombeen Man

MM,

Thanks for the reply.
It’s an interesting topic.

Rumours that a Saudi -Qatari consortium might be interested in Liverpool £3.5bn?

What’s happening at Man Utd and their proposed sale?

We’re certainly peering over the dyke.

Funny how the FSG and the Glaziers are taking their profit and there’s so many suitors with billions to invest.

I think I recall that Liverpool went for Doak after Brexit. Something along the lines of UK clubs meeting restrictions for bringing youth players in from overseas.

Irish soccer is in similar strife, without an Old Firm to create that buzz.

Suits, corruption etc, etc, etc.

Paradoxically a few have told me that Brexit is helping the domestic game here.

Youngsters are barred from moving to the UK until 18. Previously the youngsters were lost to the domestic game pre-18 years of age.

– Just random musings.

Back to the grindstone.

Auldheid

BMCUW

Nothing wrong with some altruism if it keeps us all well fed.

https://youtu.be/e4lI8e33U2A

I would call it pragmatism when I think about it.

Mad Mitch

I had a brilliant reply to you all set to go but the plumberman cometh. So it will be more of the usual eccentrically punctuated stuff you are used to now the inspiration has passed.

Did not realise that there was such an age gap between Moffat and Doak – did not recall that the former was all but 20 when he played 3 times for us. Not that 20 is too old to develop- Danny McGrain was comfortably into his 21st year before he got his first game for example. All my life I have wondered why guys at 20-22 just stop developing – this is not a new thing although post-Paul McStay it is much more common for us than it was 40-60 years ago. I wonder if in many instances youngsters get a few games- in Moffat’s case a cup final appearance included- and think they’ve made it and don’t think they need to push as much.

As to why Doak and others have left us for teams it will be much harder to get games for than us I think the answer is fairly straightforward- money. You might not be good enough to make it at Celtic but you’ll earn lots more at Liverpool finding out you are not good enough for them. But if you do make it with them…

The plumberman cometh again after a trip to Screwfix.

Jimbo

Auldheid

TMG

Re-Auldheid’s point, I’m not sure I have any faith in the SFA to use any additional funds wisely. The re-build of Hampden still resonates.

How would the PLC respond to reduced CL income? Cut costs? Increased prices, SB’s?.

=====.
SFA reform would have to be part of a deal to set out how the extra income would be used in a transparent manner.

The PLC would have to consider if the support I.e “us” would accept the consequences and in what form which takes us back to my opening point.

How much to increase solidarity and reduce prize money would come into the equation but say prize money was £23m and SP £2m would say £3m of a switch require increases of STs to recoup the £3m?

Getting a bit more from player trading would help and paying developing players when every club was doing it would cut the wage bill.

It could be done, all that is needed is a change of mindset.

Auldheid

McCaff

Thanks. It’s on it’s way. The SFSA will need evidence change is required . I thought your ” rant” filled the bill.

No problem, Auldheid ! Thanks for acknowledging the ‘rant’!! 😁

Madmitch

J67 @12.17’ish

For me — BD is the real deal.
He will make it or come very close at L/pool.
Not sure why he left us — money would be the first port of call for an answer.
Also — if reported correctly — he could be blown away by the L/pool youth facilities.
Plus are late bloomers part of the gang at St Ninians?

Regarding OM — 17 months ago I thought he had a chance of making it with us.
Pre season games and B Team games seemed to show a lot of potential.
And then it all stopped and he looked a bit lost.

AP gave him his chance but he didn’t seem to take it and B/pool was his next port of call.
As the season went on I think his performances diminished.

In contrast SW and AR have gone backwards after time out of team.
But have improved after a run of games.

I think this has hurt SW this season — when he comes in he has looked very rusty and lacking in confidence. Might be a case that he needs a loan to find out how good he really is.

CB recruitment 2023 style:

RP — in from Hibs.
SW — out on loan to Hibs?

JimDom

I couldn’t tell you (without googling) the number of times Real Madrid have won La Liga or the Copa del Rey. But I do know that they have won luggy 14 times. That’s what makes them the go-to club for most elite players. They are also spending around 1billion euros on upgrading the Bernabeu as they have a certain status to maintain and maintain it they will. La Liga is miles less competitive than the EPL. But RM continue to win the one that the EPL clubs crave.

The Celtic PLC board have long since managed to convince a huge swathe of the support that European glory is out of our reach, our ambitions lie entirely in domestic dominance, league titles and trebles. A visit to the CL Groups, kerching, genuflect in front of Real Madrid, take a hiding, and retreat to where we belong. That suits Dermot Desmond’s business plan right down to the ground.

Even if the fans were happy for the youth players to be first picks for all domestic cup matches, thereby sacrificing a treble, it’s unlikely that the board would agree, as revenue would be sacrificed at the same time.

If youth development is not a high priority for the club at the moment, and playing home matches on a plastic monstrosity in Airdrie would indicate that it isn’t, then why do Celtic bother with it ? Last Celtic B result : a 1-3 loss at home to the journeymen of Berwick .

Chris

Madmitch
J67 @12.17’ish

For me — BD is the real deal.
He will make it or come very close at L/pool.
Not sure why he left us — money would be the first port of call for an answer.
Also — if reported correctly — he could be blown away by the L/pool youth facilities.
Plus are late bloomers part of the gang at St Ninians?

Regarding OM — 17 months ago I thought he had a chance of making it with us.
Pre season games and B Team games seemed to show a lot of potential.
And then it all stopped and he looked a bit lost.

AP gave him his chance but he didn’t seem to take it and B/pool was his next port of call.
As the season went on I think his performances diminished.

In contrast SW and AR have gone backwards after time out of team.
But have improved after a run of games.

I think this has hurt SW this season — when he comes in he has looked very rusty and lacking in confidence. Might be a case that he needs a loan to find out how good he really is.

CB recruitment 2023 style:

RP — in from Hibs.
SW — out on loan to Hibs?

December 8, 2022 1:31 pm
=================
Good shout about RP and SW going to HFC
Maybe look at YR, GF, BG, JY,GH, BN, FG and QW moving to HOMFC.
That would leave GC, VG, RT, SD, HY, OP, AZ,DC and OU looking for a loan.

Auldheid

Madmitch

For the love of God (Rob Brydon * 5.49 in at

https://youtu.be/B94q7gUu75k 🙂

can you add after your abbreviations the player or individual’s surname just the once when you first use it.

Dont worry if you get the spelling wrong I often do and go to Google to check before or after then edit which I’ll do on Rod Byron after I’ve posted this.

It’s just that you make points that are worth considering but as a reader not knowing who you mean I can give up.

So again coming from the real love of God can you consider?

* After Google check but left my original attempt unedited.

Madmitch

AH @ 2.47

Just for you …

Youth prospects — Ben Doak vs Owen Moffat.

Slow starters after time on the bench — Steven Welsh vs Anthony Ralston.

CB conundrum — Steven Welsh vs Ryan Porteous.

Chris

Auldheid
Madmitch

For the love of God (Rob Brydon * 5.41 in at

https://youtu.be/B94q7gUu75k 🙂

can you add after your abbreviations the player or individual’s surname just the once when you first use it.

Dont worry if you get the spelling wrong I often do and go to Google to check before or after then edit which I’ll do on Rod Byron after I’ve posted this.

It’s just that you make points that are worth considering but as a reader not knowing who you mean I can give up.

So again coming from the real love of God can you consider?

* After Google check but left my original attempt unedited.

December 8, 2022 2:47 pm
————————–
He done the same on CQN and I done the same as you and others as soon as his obsession with abbreviations started.
Its a pity as im sure he wants people to read what he has to say, not skip his comment.
He can make interesting and valid points but how he presents them kinda defeats the purpose.

Auldheid

Mad Mitch

I get you. Thanks.

I think it all balls down to the state of mind as the players mature or dont.

If I were to rank the guys mentioned on a determination to succeed basis on how they play the game I’d for Tierney
Ralston
Welsh

I have not seen enough of Porteous to compare to Welsh buy neither lack determination to put their head in where it might be skelped.

On Doaks and Moffat it’s a “we’ll see” matter but if Jinky is not a model of determination for a forward who is?

Afternoon. The plumber man hath goneth.

Mad Mitch

We will have to see re Doak- did see the piece where he waxed lyrical about things at Anfield. There set up will be better and having a manager who has been there for 6 or 7 years will help establish a modus operandi. Obviously ours should be better. Welsh on loan seems a good idea – I quite like him but his career has stalled. Less keen on your Porteous idea- but could live with it.

Jimbo

Craig76

The firm tasked with acting for the creditors left hugely out of pocket when the previous incarnation of the Ibrox club went bust in June 2012.

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/rangers/rangers-liquidators-finally-settle-tax-case-as-eye-watering-ebt-figure-shows-club-could-never-have-been-saved-3946842

SteveNaive

Celtic have had enquiries from abroad and the EPL for Stephen Welsh. Ange wants him to stay and he has done despite limited time and moving further from the first eleven. He is still young and learning and is a very committed Celtic fan.
Why on earth would he move to Hibernian ?
A club whose fans hounded out Maloney for daring to modernise their outdated style of play.

SteveNaive

I think Welsh needs games so Hibs might be a good temporary home. Strange how Hibs- a team that used to play very good football in the dim and distant past- has fans who now seem to want blood and thunder from their team.

Jimbo

bada bing1

The liquidators of Rangers’ old operating company have come to a £54million settlement with HMRC, 10 years after the oldco was declared insolvent.

The revenue service had initially claimed £94.4m, the bulk of which came from the use of employee benefit trusts (EBTs) to pay staff between 2001 and 2009.

Players, staff and directors had been given tax-free loans which HMRC contended were income and thus taxable, something which was upheld by the Court of Session in 2015. An appeal to the Supreme Court was unanimously thrown out.

The revenue service had been claiming £47m for that alone, as well as a sum in the region of £10m relating to former owner Craig Whyte’s failure to pay VAT and PAYE.

The total debts claimed when the former Rangers operating company were declared insolvent were in excess of £160m.

The agreement with HMRC means unsecured creditors will be paid 14.3p for every pound owed.

A letter signed by joint-liquidators James Stephen and Malcolm Cohen said: “We are pleased to advise that since the last report, we continued extensive and collaborative discussions with HMRC to reach a negotiated resolution in relation to the remaining elements of the claim.

“After significant input from BDO’s Tax Dispute Resolution team, together with our legal advisors, we were able to reach a composite settlement of £56m for the whole of the HMRC claim.

“Formal settlement documentation will ensure that HMRC will not raise any further claims in the liquidation.

“The agreed settlement with HMRC reflects the outcome of the Supreme Court decision in 2017.

“This composite settlement represents an agreed reduction to HMRC’s initial submitted claim in the liquidation.

“As a result, all other unsecured creditors should receive dividends totalling approximately 5.3p in the £ more than they would have otherwise received.

“It also negates the need for further protracted litigation which could have been costly to the liquidation estate.

“The Joint Liquidators have been in consultation with the Committee and it was agreed that the composite settlement of £56m was a positive outcome for the creditors.”

An HMRC spokesperson said: “The Supreme Court ruled in HMRC’s favour in the case against Rangers’ tax avoidance scheme.

“We are pleased to have reached a settlement with the liquidators to recover the money due as a result of this judgment.”

Magua

BMCUW

An informative article indeed.

My only experience of playing football, was either with the mates in Bella park, or organised football with the primary school. By the time I reached secondary school, I chucked the organised stuff altogether…I was more interested in going to see the Celts. Fortunately, my dad understood. If anything, he was more Celtic-daft than I was.

As things stand with the academy, my thoughts on the matter is along the lines of:

“Where’s the bloody point?”

Even the Barca and Man United academies do not bear fruit, as they did in the past. Is all the time, effort and money spent worth it? Not in my book.

Craig76

Hell’s bells, Craig. Did the Scotsman mention the ‘L’ word? Will wonders never cease?

As for the Guinness tops? Yuk. On my travels to see the Celts back in the day, I often used to meet a cracking bunch of Celts from Fife. Lochgelly, If I’m not mistaken. One of these lads had a quite unique preferred tipple…Guinness with a dash of blackcurrant. Funnily enough, I was never tempted to try it.

bada bing

I’ve never understood, why the creditors did not go after Murray personally, in an attempt to recoup some of their losses. At the very least, they might have sent the fecker into bankruptcy.

Hail Hail.

Craig76

MAGUA
They keep tying themselves in knots. 1 bit it’s the club then further down it’s the company to appease the hoards

Magua

Craig76

For once, I’m gonna tune into BBC Scotland news at six. That’s quite a major news story. Will they cover the story or blank it completely? If they do cover it, what fairytales will be told about a certain happening in 2012? 😀 That’s the Harry Hood book read. Very enjoyable. Even the non-Celtic parts.

Hail Hail.

bada bing1

Jet Black RIP

BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKER

BADABING

Soon there will be no more heroes anymore…

fan

Auldheid BMCUWP @1-51pm
Bellingham is different because he hasn’t had his attacking instinct’s knocked out of him by moving to Germany in his formative years.
He has the vision to see field ahead of him without some clipboard fanny screaming at him about maintaining possession.
This world Cup has shown how easy it is to nullify the possession over everything teams.
Bellingham plays in a counterattacking team who hold position but break quickly so losing ball does not leave them vulnerable.
Enriques Spain were an embarrassment as they had good players but a poor system and coach.
That they learned nothing from Japan defeat was inexcusable.
In Scotland i have my nephews two sons play one in Scottish pro youth set up and other with Celtic and its obvious the detrimental effect the clipboard coaches are having on both kids natural instincts.
Surely they could coach without being detrimental to all the reasons that saw them signed in the first place?
Teach them position with and without ball but do not curtail their natural instincts.
Holland showed how east it was to score on possession obsessed USA by simple fast counters and could easily have scored more while USA did a nice job of passing ball in non positive areas.
Hopefully this World Cup will bring to an end all this droll possession and return to a game where excitement and goals are the aim.
It took Pep over a decade of European failure to sign someone who gave him alternative options so hopefully a lot of these clipboard chancers will abandon their incomplete efforts at replicating it.

bada bing1

STV News reports on FIFA fining the Republic women’s team getting for singing………slow news day….or something else?

bada bing1

The biggest sporting scandal ever in the UK,didn’t even get a mention on BBC Scotland headlines,a rancid organisation

Mahe

Belated Rest in Peace to Mills Lane

Craig 76

1st tme i’ve seen this footage, don’t think he even got a ban
https://twitter.com/jonnymain2011/status/1600634072602230784?s=20&t=NwUFPgTzaUjSpjrL4A-B9A

Magua

So liquidators of the original Ibrox club, have settled with HMRC, over the amount of tax due by the former to the latter. The amount? £56m. Not that it’ll ever be paid of course, but sure, it’s the thought that counts.

Huns can console themselves, with the thought that the ’56’ has indeed arrived.

Hail Hail.

The Real McCoy

Belmont Brian,
Remember joking with you about “Rattling Bhoy “😂
Hopefully hear this live tonight in The Georgian 🤞

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F23SoNYjEwI

PS. I enjoy your trilogy posts 👏👏👏
HH💚🍀

Auldheid

Chris 3.93pm

I know, I was using humour to get my point over but apart from that the whole “Would I Lie to You” excerpt I linked to has me laughing every time I watch it.

As we get into the Christmas spirit I though a bit of mirth and ho ho ho would help get there.

BTW what is “oh oh oh”

Santa walking backwards.

Is it get my coat time?

Auldheid

fan
Auldheid BMCUWP @1-51pm
Bellingham is different because he hasn’t had his attacking instinct’s knocked out of him by moving to Germany in his formative years.
He has the vision to see field ahead of him without some clipboard fanny screaming at him about maintaining possession.
======================
The last line above had me laughing out loud.

The rest is spot on too and I hope the possession game which is boring, how many were getting turned off by Brendan Rogers adherence to it, has had its comeuppance.

Leggy

Evening all,

Craig76,

Not for me. Actually don’t think he would get a game in our midfield ???

How long has he been away and how fit would he be !!!!!!

Just my opinion obviously but I don’t like former players returning.

Auldheid

On the subject of the operating company myth contained in Times Scotland report of the HMRC settlement I put out a wee challenge on Twitter to Times Scotland out of devilment before it takes a Christmas break and leaves my left (sinister for Latin scholars) shoulder.

Auldheid
@Auldheid
·40m
Replying to
@magnusllewellin
and
@RangersFC

” For an operating company to exist pre 2012 there had to be a written contract between the club & operating company under UEFA FFP. Where is that contract & who were the two parties to it? After 2012 you have a club & operating company construct – RFC Ltd (the club) and RIFC Plc the company.
So to clarify what was required for a CLUB (see Art 12 FFP & Art14 FSR) to get a UEFA licence can you obtain BOTH written contracts and publish them? In the interests of veracity.”

For SC readers here is the opening para from FSR Art14 that defines who can apply for a UEFA licence

Article 14 Definition of licence applicant and three-year rule

14.01
A licence applicant may only be a football CLUB i.e. a legal entity fully and solely responsible for a football team participating in national and international club competitions which either:

a.is a registered member of a UEFA member association and/or its affiliated league (hereinafter: registered member); or

b. has a contractual relationship with a registered member (hereinafter: football company). (Later in the FSR regs it sets out that a written record of the contractual relationship is needed) https://documents.uefa.com/r/LjQqEb3_Iy8CFzkDqPkK2Q/xr9yuFHyMWnWsiIeR2HrKg

The rest of Art14 including the three year rule can be read at

https://documents.uefa.com/r/LjQqEb3_Iy8CFzkDqPkK2Q/adzBHxDPAA90HEiTJVRnKA

but on that aspect, which is new, is Old Rangers did have three consecutive years in CL competition pre 2012 yet this was not enough to allow them to continue as the same Rangers back in 2012 without settling there huge debt.

It may be that the change is there now to allow clubs who were in administration but not liquidated at time of applying for a licence to become eligible to apply in the following year or years rather than wait three years to become eligible to apply as long as the going concern causes were eradicated.

Same club my arse. RFC Plc pre 2012 the CLUB under (a) of Art14.

RFC Ltd/RIFC PLC the new club and the new company under (b)

Craig76

Leggy
Maybe PL(Peter Lawwell) is getting the band back together 😀🤣🤣